On 10th June we learned that Australia’s first locally manufactured hybrid car will roll off Toyota’s production line in less than two years, in a deal Victorian Premier John Brumby has heralded as a ‘coup’.
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and Toyota’s president Katsuaki Watanabe made the announcement today in Japan.
ABC News: Brumby lauds $35m Toyota hybrid ‘coup’
I don’t have any axe to grind over Hybrid cars, I’d just like to know the truth about how ‘green’ they really are. In the US and UK there has been some controversy over the ‘dust to dust’ or ‘life cycle’ CO2 emissions, costs and energy useage of the Toyota Prius. Toyota supposedly produced their own report, which to the best of my knowledge has never been made public. A CNW Marketing report claimed that the dust to dust cost per mile for a Toyota Prius was $3.249, compared to $3.027 for Hummer H2. There is more in a balanced article from the UK Telegraph from 2007 entitled: Who are you kidding?
This news has reached Australia:
As more Australians scramble to buy hybrid petrol/electric cars, Britain’s biggest-selling auto magazine has taken a swipe at them, saying hybrids are no better for emissions than an efficient diesel or petrol-driven car.
The magazine Auto Express says none of the hybrids’ advertised emissions figures were borne out in their test drives.
ABC News: Hybrid cars ‘not so green’
Meanwhile, Toyota are promising a ‘plug-in’ hybrid for 2010.
Thanks to Luke for alerting me to Australia embracing the hybrid car, while I was on holiday in Spain – I’m still catching up!
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
Electric or hybrid cars – require enormous amounts of copper for the wiring of the electric motors. Batteries – vast quantities of lead or nickel.
So let’s imagine what the future might be – mineral exploration teams in the middle of nowhere driving hybrids. Can you imagine a 4WD hybrid car in the bush? Batteries run down, so how do we get going again, Assuming we ran out of petroleum).
Mining – using hybrid trucks to cart the ore – so how much lead or battery capacity would be needed to power one of these behemoths? How would that affect the payload? Bear in mind that the big trucks we use to haul ore are powered by DC electric motors in each wheel powered by an enormous electric generator turbine, usually diesel powered. Same with diesel electric locomotives.
Can you imagine mining with battery powered excavators, haul, trucks?
You could if you were an idiot.
Tokenism thy name is Rudd
One extra point needs to be made, during 1989 Richard Yates was the mining manager of the Argyle Diamond Mine in the east Kimberleys, and asked me to cost the implementing of constructing a solar powered generation plant to supply the extra 15 Mw Rio Tinto needed to run the mine.
This was due to a demand by the Wilderness Society that Rio Tinto use Renewable Energy to satisfy its energy needs for the mining operation.
By memory I worked out Rio Tinto would need to put in place some 3 sq km of solar panels, devote one copper mine to supply the copper necessary to supply the plant with electricity in the form of busbars and cabling, and, from back of envelope calculation, worked out that it was not economic.
I had not factored in the requirement that the mine operated 24/24 so I forgot about adding the cost of storing the solar electricity in batteries, the amount of lead-acid batteries being a mind boggling number, during night time. The final conclusion was financial ruin, (probably the goal of the Wilderness Society’s demands).
This analysis of the economics of implementing Greenie solutions for energy solutions resulted in my present attitude.
Greenies are quite barking mad.
Doesn’t look like arctic ice is melting the way AGW wanted/predicted still 2 months to go though….
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.365.jpg
current 9.5 million km2 = 1975 summer extent
REX
changes is climate need to be in terms of 30 year averages, so monthly, yearly or decadal statistics are irrelevant.
This means the cooling observed since 1998 is also climatically irrelevant.
Amazing that climate advocates don’t express their opinions in climate terms, data averaged over 30 year periods.
As Nigel Cawley said, we are being lied to.
The only green things I see ere are Rudd and Bracks.
“green: adj. … colloq inexperienced, credulous, easily tricked”
– or elsewhere … “… Lacking sophistication or worldly experience; naive. … Easily duped or deceived; gullible.”
– and … “without experience e.g.: Only someone as green as you would believe a story like that.”
So lets start on the normal Louis crap:
“Electric or hybrid cars – require enormous amounts of copper for the wiring of the electric motors. Batteries – vast quantities of lead or nickel.”
Yes they do however no more that the already hundred of millions of electric motors in place in industry and in the car already. Every car presently on the road is a mild electric hybrid already as you don’t go far in a modern car without the electric starter motor. Also the modern batteries will be mostly be based on Lithium plus lead, lithium and nickel metal hydride batteries are almost fully recyclable.
“So let’s imagine what the future might be – mineral exploration teams in the middle of nowhere driving hybrids. Can you imagine a 4WD hybrid car in the bush? Batteries run down, so how do we get going again, Assuming we ran out of petroleum).”
First of all running out of petrol will stop an IC car so I have no idea what you are on about. A hybrid off road vehicle would run as long as the liquid fuel lasted just like an IC car.
“Bear in mind that the big trucks we use to haul ore are powered by DC electric motors in each wheel powered by an enormous electric generator turbine, usually diesel powered. Same with diesel electric locomotives.”
Except that you have pointed out that these vehicles are ALREADY hybrids so WTF are you going on about???????
“Can you imagine mining with battery powered excavators, haul, trucks?
You could if you were an idiot.”
Only an true idiot could say this AND point out that the vehicles are already hybrids in the same post – LOL. A small battery could easily be added to such vehicles as is being done in long haul trucks to stop the incredibly wasteful idling problem.
“By memory I worked out Rio Tinto would need to put in place some 3 sq km of solar panels, devote one copper mine to supply the copper necessary to supply the plant with electricity in the form of busbars and cabling, and, from back of envelope calculation, worked out that it was not economic.”
So what was your expertise to do this? Do you have training in renewable energy or electrical engineering? Did you research it thoroughly or did you just get the answer that you wanted?
“This analysis of the economics of implementing Greenie solutions for energy solutions resulted in my present attitude.
Greenies are quite barking mad.”
Sorry mate there is only one person here that is barking mad and his name starts with L!!!!!!!!
BTW the manager of the Argyle mine must be loving paying $1.60 or so for a liter of diesel.
Imagine if they had the savings of King Island:
http://www.wind.com.au/article3.htm
“Estimated power generated by this project of 3,000,000 kW/h. annually, enabling savings in diesel costs of A$500,000.00 per year.”
That saving would be calculated on cheap diesel – what would it be saving today for the residents? King Island has flow batteries as well.
Or Rottnest:
http://www.pcorp.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=112&Itemid=166
“A new power station is being built incorporating a single 600kW wind turbine, two 320kW LLDTM generators. The wind turbine was installed in December 2004. Work on the new power station will be undertaken during 2005.
Excess wind energy will be used to power a water desalination plant. Diesel fuel savings of 37% are expected. In addition there will be fewer fuel deliveries to this sensitive and highly valued environment, decreasing the risk of fuel spillages.”
Bet the manager is really happy with that decision now!!!!
Finally if you mouse around the Powercorp site a bit more you can see the mine managers that did not listen to the likes of Louis.
http://www.pcorp.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=117&Itemid=92
“The PowerStore also gives you the option for augmentation of insufficient power supplies to allow new electrification of mines and / or locomotives. The PowerStore can be used to stabilise isolated gas generation at the power station and to reduce the effects of machines stopping and starting on the traction power system, before it gets to the rest of the power system. Due to PowerStores containerised design it leads to lower cost of installation at remote locations.”
So instead of listening to luddites like Louis hopefully the newer mine managers can install storage such as this along with the solar and wind or to supplement the generators and drastically reduce the amount of diesel or gas that has to be shipped huge distances to these mine sites.
Ender – Louis is really wasted as a functional entity. Probably years of sniffing diesel. It’s almost like talking to an infant – except they don’t mention abiotic oil. BTW he did a runner on the acid rain. You all told me so. Sigh.
Ender, hybrids are as big a con as is AGW. They were designed to comply with a projected Californian law, which did not eventuate. Toyota & Honda decided there were enough fools in the world, for them to market the things as “green” cars, anyway.
In the real world, they are a dead loss. The fuel consumption is much greater than claimed.
One of our neighbors has a Prius, being used for basically the same job as my wife’ Mazda 2. Considering they both have the same carrying capacity, apart from the Mazda’s superior abillity to fit a wheel chair, they were very upset to find that their $38,000 Toyota is burning 2 liters per 100Km more than our $21,000 Mazda.
The claims are so false that it only uses half a liter less than my 28 years old Triumph. This car has fully repaid the recourses used in its construction, & still has the probable life span of a hybrid left in it.
The Mazda will also last longer, as it will not be thrown away at year 7 to 10, because it is worth less [even with new batteries] than the cost of battery replacement.
I feel sorry for people who are conned by these things, particularly, as a modern diesel, even without the engine off when the car is stopped technology, is so much more economical, in the real world.
QED
Ender
The Solar energy analysis was done in 1989.
You, like, Luke, simply don’t.
Louis, it may yet prove that the Greens and mineral industry do not have irreconcilable differences. On a recent (last month) field trip to Zambia, our survey happened to skirt the supergiant (and super-profitable) Kansanshi Cu mine in the Copperbelt. Most of the 20+ sq. km. mine lease that we could see (apart from the bit actually being dug up, obviously) was covered with plantations of no food crop that I recognised, so I asked our (local) driver. His answer: Jatropha, also known as the ‘diesel tree’. Obviously the managers of Kansanshi are at least hedging their bets that mineral diesel prices will remain low enough to keep things profitable over the projected mine life.
Mark,
So, what is the point you make?
Mark
I view our relationship with the Environment lobby as would a Canadian Beaver, intent on getting it’s dam building permit approved, to finding it disallowed because it is “unnatural”.
Getting into bed with the ecological sirens is an ASX death-nell.
It looks to me that the Kansanshi operators are gearing up to use biodiesel for their operations, at least as a backup in case the peak oil theorists have it right (and you’d have to admit their consensus hypothesis of a global production peak some time between 2005 and 2012 is looking pretty good just at the minute). Sorry I didn’t spell it out originally, but there’s a good reason it’s been called ‘diesel tree’; jatropha is quite possibly the world’s richest source of easily-extractable biodiesel.
“One of our neighbors has a Prius, being used for basically the same job as my wife’ Mazda 2. Considering they both have the same carrying capacity, apart from the Mazda’s superior abillity to fit a wheel chair, they were very upset to find that their $38,000 Toyota is burning 2 liters per 100Km more than our $21,000 Mazda.”
Hybrids meet a particular niche, city driving. They can’t magically make energy appear out of nowhere for long distance driving, but for the commuter stop/start idle, which most cars seem to end up in, the hybrid is much more efficient.
Mark
Sorry, consensus is not science, and biofuel is a willow of the whisp.
In the Kimberley region we have the Calotropis plant, initially planted to produce biofuels, but failed.
Given the near impossibility of producing petroleum from biosources economically, have any in your circle thought about the possibility that your theories might be wrong?
hasbeen – “Ender, hybrids are as big a con as is AGW. They were designed to comply with a projected Californian law, which did not eventuate. Toyota & Honda decided there were enough fools in the world, for them to market the things as “green” cars, anyway.”
In some respects I agree with you. The Prius, when it was conceived, was about as green as the car companies wanted to be an not upset their faithful consumers with anything too radical. And it is the main reason why I do not have one. I can buy a Honda Jazz and get much the same fuel economy as a Prius for a third of the price.
However now with oil at over $130.00 dollars a barrel and even the most conservative people starting to realise that what should have been pretty obvious to anybody is that oil is a finite resource and we are using it at a frightening rate. Car companies are now starting to design battery electric cars and plug in hybrids.
I would have forked out for a Prius had it been a plug in and the next release might be.
“In the real world, they are a dead loss. The fuel consumption is much greater than claimed.”
That is a sweeping generalisation and is completely false. The fuel economy you get from a Prius is entirely dependent on how you drive it – more so than other cars. When I drove the companies Prius in start stop traffic I could crawl along the Mitchell Freeway on electric with the motor off for many kilometers. Imagine if all the cars in that peak hour traffic jam were also hybrids. Instead of 1000 idling engines crawling along at 20km/hr there would be no engines on at all. That is where the real saving is and the difference between a clean diesel and a hybrid.
‘Instead of 1000 idling engines crawling along at 20km/hr there would be no engines on at all.’
Not quite right with current hybrids. They have only one fuel – petrol. If your statement above were true Toyota would have developed perpetual motion.
I believe a Prius can manage about 5l/100k in town – not much better than a small diesel.
bikerider – “Not quite right with current hybrids. They have only one fuel – petrol. If your statement above were true Toyota would have developed perpetual motion.”
Never said it was perpetual motion however the advantage is when the car is stopped the engine is off. All those cars stopped on the freeway could have their motors off and not idling using fuel. In slow traffic you can extend the electric only range quite considerably until the motor comes on.
“I believe a Prius can manage about 5l/100k in town – not much better than a small diesel.”
Depending on how you drive them they can do better than that. The 5l/100km is a figure from a composite drive as per the new standards. A small diesel’s engine is still on when it is stopped in traffic. Most of the advantages of diesels are on longer trips at higher speed.
The level of debate here is abysmal.
Rudderless has pushed the Prius as a response to his embarrassment over his Mickey Mouse Fuelwatch scheme (his colleagues dumped on him with a heap of highly accurate leaks) and his fear of the electoral response to the increasing bowser cost of petrol. At this point, it seems very likely he will exempt petrol from the forthcoming C tax, as the EU, NZ have done. The point that is really irritating is that he gave Toyota AUD$35m to assemble this vehicle in Melbourne and will not reduce tariffs on the imports – for those who want to buy an Australian car – so he can reclothe himself in both green and Aussie flag colours. Patriotism is the last refuge … etc.
We can buy these vehicles now if we want to. Giving a lump of tax money to the most profitable car manufacturer in the world to try and save some jobs in Melbourne (at the cost of $300,000 each pa – Productivity Commission) so we can purchase something already available is truly Rudderless.
I lived and worked on King Island for a considerable period. The resident population is about 300 or so. It takes about 40 minutes to drive the north-south length of the island. It is located in the very middle of the southern trade wind zone (the !@#$xx^% wind never stops). Despite all these advantages, power dropouts are common and the local people are constantly grateful for the diesel generator backup because they know it is actually reliable.
In 2004, the WWF commissioned a paper entitled “Clean Energy Future for Australia”, Saddler, Diesendorf, Denniss. It is almost incomprehensible (so the WWF was well pleased), and avoided the petrol question completely and deliberately. This is as close as the Watermelons have come to answering the hard energy replacement questions.
As crunch time on energy supply gets closer and closer, the general populace becomes more and more aware that the Watermelons wish a significant reduction in their general standard of living. I truly doubt that the ensuing voting pattern will reflect the selfless altruism required here. Hence the “guilt” propaganda run by the Watermelons (Gaia will send giant brown toads to eat your children, etc)
The peak oil proponents have a real problem with their line – the actual measurement of oil reserves (ie. hard measured data on what oil may be remaining in currently exploited deposits and the size/quality of known but unexploited deposits) is extremely difficult to ascertain. OPEC countries deliberately hide these data and companies like Shell have misreported them for years. The short of that is just “We don’t really know”. Oil reserves are certainly finite in the sense that we are consuming it at a rate many orders of magnitude higher than geological processes may evolve new deposits, but the actual point of decline on current consumption rates is very difficult to pinpoint without reliable data on currently known deposits.
I note with a smile the talk of a plug in prius, obviously the only concern being the savings on fuel, not so much the coal generated power used to “fuel” the plug in car.
Ianl – “The level of debate here is abysmal.
Rudderless has pushed the Prius”
Well you are not helping as the car is actually the hybrid Camry that is available in the US but not here. However I do agree with WTF are we giving millions of dollars to a massive multinational.
“As crunch time on energy supply gets closer and closer, the general populace becomes more and more aware that the Watermelons wish a significant reduction in their general standard of living.”
As crunch time comes the brownies are going to keep consuming grimly at the same rate all the while spreading deception and lies about the true state of our energy resources. This could lead to collapse of our economic system and a dramatic drop in living standards. ‘Watermelons’ want to reduce energy use without compromising living standards too much and try and avoid collapse.
“The short of that is just “We don’t really know”. ”
And brownies interpret this as party on as usual until it all runs out whereupon they can burn the usual suspects for not telling them that this was going to happen. Its called doublespeak – brownies standard language.
Sensible people, not oil addicts, would interpret this lack of data as a warning and prudently move to alternatives in case the worse case scenerios are true.
“The level of debate here is abysmal”
I suppose that’s because some want to be purely cynical. The significance of the Toyota hybrid issue is lost as we descend the ladder of ideas.
As bikerider knows we see a lot of Toyotas (one kind or another) cruising through Canberra every day and the choice of models, although large is usually a “Toyota”.
On Sunday the boys were discussing the virtues of putting their HiAce vans on natural gas at a cost of around $2000 and thus creating a dual fuel version with a gas range of about 200 km. Meanwhile I’m thinking we need a mass storage LNG depot at this end of the line to avert a crisis in supply like WA are experiencing after an explosion in their production plant.
An article in the “Chronicle” has an interview with the local Toyota dealer. “The dealer sells about 12 of the hybrid cars a month including 6 to government buyers” They expect local manufacturing of the Prius and a new hybrid Camry will bring down the price of such vehicles, “where we sell 6 of the Prius we will sell 20 of the Camry” based on fleet requirements.
My concern is more about the absence of a fuel efficient wagon or a ute in the proposed line up.
Why should Chairman Rudd spend $35 million coerced from taxpayers just for a *Toyota* hybrid? The Honda Civic Hybrid is much cheaper (see comparison at http://www.caradvice.com.au/2214/toyota-prius-i-tech-vs-honda-civic-hybrid-road-test/), and General Motors was planning a Commodore hybrid
It’s bad enough for a government to try to pick winners, worse to pick a particular type of technology that may not be the most environmentally friendly anyway, and just ludicrous to pick one brand of this technology.
Why should Chairman Rudd spend $35 million coerced from taxpayers just for a *Toyota* hybrid? The Honda Civic Hybrid is much cheaper (see comparison at http://www.caradvice.com.au/2214/toyota-prius-i-tech-vs-honda-civic-hybrid-road-test/), and General Motors was planning a Commodore hybrid.
It’s bad enough for a government to try to pick winners, worse to pick a particular type of technology that may not be the most environmentally friendly anyway, and just ludicrous to pick one brand of this technology.
Ender,
‘Most of the advantages of diesels are on longer trips at higher speed.’
Quite right, which is why I’ve bought one. Use public transport/bikes/walking around town and the small diesel for trips where you need flexibility and/or distance.
Corolla,
I liked the salesman’s comments that he might have to heavily discount big 4WDs – if you don’t believe in Peak Oil and are in the market for a Prado just wait a while.
Ender
Your usual straw man. There was nothing in my post that said more efficient use of energy should not be pursued, including oil. So as usual, you answered some other question. That is why it’s called a straw man.
We really don’t know the peak oil timing. Fact. Labelling someone an oil addict for stating this fact is about your usual level of Sesame St sarcasm, and about as effective. Instead of indulging your little foot stampies, help us to extract the actual JORC-audited oil reserve data. As I said … abysmal. Now find the “doublespeak” there – that’s an actual question, not a straw man.
OK, I got the specific vehicle wrong (like I care what its called). So why can we not buy the Camry or whatever ? Toyota could easily sell it here (despite the union-driven tariffs), so perhaps it doesn’t because it perceives no market worth pursuing. Giving Toyota $35m is plain stupid when reducing tariffs yields a real purchase incentive for marketers to act on, as the Productivity Commission has shown year after year, so clearly Rudderless has another purpose (saving union-dominated jobs in Melbourne at extraordinary cost seems a likely candidate, especially after Mitsubishi closed).
I’m sorry, bikender, but I tend not to believe car salesmen … as I’ve pointed out, peak oil has as yet no hard, reliable, use-by date. Hybrid vehicle technology is still primitive, so to paraphrase Margaret Thatcher: “You panic if you want to”.
Ianl
Good post, and Ender will explain in more detail, but I side with Jack Kenney http://www.gasresources.net) and Fred Hoyle that petroleum is a high pressure and temperature phase of the H-C system and is a stable phase in the mantle, along with diamond which gets to the surface accidentally in kimberlites and occasionally in lamproites.
David Archibald and I have compared notes over genesis of petroleum and David is happy to accept the geochemical data supporting Biotic origins. I don’t.
The standard theory is that the kerogens found in tar sands and oil shales are the precursors of petroleum which, when buried to great depths spontaneously produce lighter fractions (kerogen in a massively heavy hydrocarbon).
The trick question is how biomass (accumulated algae and zooplankton) buried to depths typical of diagenesis, (300m ?) spontaenously generate kerogens. This is the explanation for observed kerogen in unmetamorphosed oil shales.
I call Biotic oil theory as Superman Theory,( Superman transformed coal into diamond simply by compressing it).
It’s the orgin of the hydrocarbons in the unmetamorphosed sediments that is the issue.
I suggest holding on to your horses for a while at least. One good reason is all petrol engines should convert to natural gas with out too much fuss. Second, current diesel engines seem to go over to natural gas as a dual fuel arrangement. Does your diesel have spark plugs?
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108946/article.html
Natural gas and the family car
http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/act/content/2006/s2269708.htm
Nigel Carney – “rosetta moon”- articles on gas reserves etc
rosettamoon.copley.org.au/?p=138
Louis, Haven’t you realised yet that you cant present scientific facts, logic or common sense to Zealots?
The old saying proves true. There is nothing worse than a converted fanatic.
Beano
Arhhhh you have found me, (putting on his best Shakesperian personna), alas, to what mortal coil have you ? Alak, Ohhhhh,,,,,,,,, fx Goon show,,,,,,,we are doooooooned!
Green, sinonym (in new spellspeak) to gangreen.
Gavin
“Does your diesel have spark plugs?”
Are these like glow plugs?
Sparking and glowing are, er, slightly different things to those of us living in reality but mere rhetorisms for those not.
Ianl – “As I said … abysmal. Now find the “doublespeak” there – that’s an actual question, not a straw man.”
So you are asking me to find the doublespeak???? Peak Oil people from Matt Simmons down have been trying for years to get the correct data however oil reserve figures are state secrets. We do not know the true state of the oil reserves however we do know what they were, and we also know the approximate rate of discoveries as they are trumpeted far and wide. The figures do not match leading most people to believe that OPEC has massively overstated its reserves and is engaging in a game of bluff to avoid disclosing the true state of its oil reserves.
“OK, I got the specific vehicle wrong (like I care what its called). So why can we not buy the Camry or whatever ?”
Well you were the one whinging about the quality of the debate and you could not even get the car right. It is important as the Camry is a better sized car for more people hence the reason it was on sale in the US. I assume that it will come onto the market here and will also I think be more acceptable.
Funny you should mention JORC figures as someone else here bangs on about JORC – hmmmmmm
Beano: Are all hydrocarbons organic in origin? What is natural gas? How do we produce methane?
At the edge of a continent where the land slides under a sea, layers of sediment eventually cover much of the original biomass and hence it’s compressed.
http://www.naturalgas.org/overview/background.asp
Louis: Rumor has it, there is a dangerous but simple experiment so I Googled what happens when you light a fart. The evidence is there for all to see where we get our biogas from. It starts with vegetable matter being gulped down with air in a wet environment.
BTW: I worked in sewage treatment also other organic and mineral processes where we produced industrial quantities of gases like H2S on occasions.
Louis,
Biofuel is a ‘will o’ the wisp’? Actually seems rather apposite for a volatile liquid, but anyway…if it’s ‘virtually impossible’ to make economically, you’d better tell First Quantum (or sell their shares), since you clearly know so much more about it than they do.
‘Consensus is not science’ I’ll let through to the ‘keeper for now. What is quintessentially scientific, though, is developing a model, making a prediction based on that model, then observing whether reality matches the prediction. As far as I’m aware, peak oil theorists have been uniquely successful in predicting the magnitude of the oil price rise over the last few years (in sharp contrast to virtually all economists, who have repeatedly got it embarrassingly, ludicrously wrong). Accordingly, a naive, purely scientific view will accept the peak oil hypothesis as currently being the one that best fits the observed data.
Have I considered that they’re wrong? Of course, indeed I hope that they are. But that’s not what I’m betting at the moment, and clearly neither are First Quantum Minerals.
bikerider – “Quite right, which is why I’ve bought one. Use public transport/bikes/walking around town and the small diesel for trips where you need flexibility and/or distance.”
Which is almost exactly what I do expect for the small diesel. I am thinking of getting one however I am waiting, one because my present car is perfectly OK and I cannot justify trading it and second because the next Prius may be a plug in.
I am also thinking of doing an EV conversion like Mal here http://a4x4kiwi.blogspot.com/.
Also I HAVE to get back on my bike and ride to the station instead of taking the car – I am so slack.
Are all hydrocarbons organic in origin?
Obviously not. Titan.
Eyrie – “Are all hydrocarbons organic in origin?”
Firstly no-one has said that ALL hydrocarbons are organic in origin just that the incredibly complex mix of long chain hydrocarbons that is crude oil is.
Second how can you be certain that the hydrocarbons on Titan are not biological? We have landed one probe on the surface that lasted for 30 minutes or so and that is our sum total of first hand knowledge of the surface conditions of Titan. How can you possibly be 100% certain that there is no life on Titan?
This ain’t rocket science.
Take an underpowered econobox. Add the weight of electric motors and batteries. Then expect the econobox to work better and get better mileage?
And have the same amount of maintenance cost for the engine, but *also* for the motors and batteries *and* all the extra wiring that goes with all that?
There’s another cost. Here in the states, there is special Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) training for ambulance personnel responding to an automobile crash involving a hybrid vehicle. Emergency personnel responding to such a crash risk electrocution, and are required to stand away until an EMT with the proper training is delivered to the scene.
Which means, of course, that a crash could electrocute the occupants of the car itself.
People buy hybrids because they’re “status” cars, just like people who buy Hummers. They’re showing off to their own crowd.
Schiller,
the big mining companies use hybrid trucks. Must be because they like to waste money.
And those petrol powered cars never catch fire, do they?
Now this is the car that I would like to see produced in Australia with a subsidy – can’t we redirect the 35 million to them:
http://www.aptera.com/
Schiller – “Emergency personnel responding to such a crash risk electrocution, and are required to stand away until an EMT with the proper training is delivered to the scene.”
A lot of this is hype. The same accelerometers that fire the airbags also trip the cct breakers on the battery which isolates it.
http://www.state.nj.us/dca/dfs/prius2g.pdf
You can see this on page 16 of the safety manual.
“People buy hybrids because they’re “status” cars, just like people who buy Hummers. They’re showing off to their own crowd.”
At the moment this is probably true however as PHEVs and BEVs become mainstream then this will not be the case.
SJT
They are not hybrid trucks in the sense of a Prius, which either uses petrol or battery power. The mining trucks are like diesel electric locos where the engine runs a generator which powers the electric motors in the wheels.
Ender
Can you point me to a site for the rules®s re. high voltage EV conversions?
Thanks
Louis – “The mining trucks are like diesel electric locos where the engine runs a generator which powers the electric motors in the wheels.”
How do you know that they do not have a battery? I am dead sure that there would be some sort of storage, even if it was some capacitors, to smooth the output of the generators.
What makes the Prius a hybrid is the combination of electric and IC power. Larger batteries would only be a small step for these large trucks. They are also ideal candidates for battery power as they only travel short distances and could easily be battery powered.
This way, assuming you are talking to any more mine managers, the trucks could charge from a central wind/solar/natural gas power station thereby drastically reducing the amount of diesel that the mine uses. Also as batteries/EV power trucks would be vastly more reliable than IC trucks the maintenance costs would be far lower.
Marcus – “Ender
Can you point me to a site for the rules®s re. high voltage EV conversions?
Thanks”
You should find most of what you need here:
http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com/index.html
This is also a good site for links:
http://www.zeva.com.au/links.php
Ender
what are you drinking in your green tea?
Ender
http://terex.com/main.php?obj=prod&action=VIEW&id=16c312e01bf5321716ad0cda4b8a186c&nav=prod&cid=182b2104d7a1ce2c68b57b49f8c1436c
Now where are the batteries stored? If Any, (apart from the normal starting ones).
Louis
If these truck carried the batteries to provide 3500Hp, they would be permanently anchored to the spot, with no payload!
Batteries indeed? really some people have no connection to reality, we are talking here of a 400 ton payload for God’s sake not to mention the empty wgt.!?
Johnathan Wilkes – “If these truck carried the batteries to provide 3500Hp, they would be permanently anchored to the spot, with no payload!”
3500hp is about 2.6MW. For operations you would need about 5MWh or so of storage which would be at the best lithium of 161Wh per kg would give a battery of about 30 tons.
Given that the truck would not have any diesel motor and could be made lighter I think we could carry around 30 tons of batteries.
Actually thinking about it the trucks could use tese in wheel motors http://www.solomontechnologies.com/index.html
so the truck itself becomes basically an open frame so that batteries can be swapped in and out easily.
These batteries:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/environment/2007-07-04-sodium-battery_N.htm
that are more rugged than lithiums could just be part of the mine’s power system as they are designed for this purpose. The trucks could ‘borrow’ the modules for traction duties and return the discharged ones to the mine’s battery bank.
So you would probably only need to load on one 5 or 10 ton module for a couple of hours of driving, then drive over a pit where the discharged battery is removed and charged module is replaced in a couple of seconds.
It seems we have gong into battery la la land.
Louis – “It seems we have gong into battery la la land.”
Yes the same la la land that utilities are in that are installing these batteries for ancillary services.
How is the nu-physics la la land that you inhabit going BTW?
Ender,
Nu-physics – what the stuff Dr Peratt works in, as well as Eric Lener, Gerrit Verschuur and Timothy Eastman?
You really do yourself credit vilifying these scientists by calling their work nu-physics.
Ender
“Louis – “The mining trucks are like diesel electric locos where the engine runs a generator which powers the electric motors in the wheels.”
How do you know that they do not have a battery? I am dead sure that there would be some sort of storage, even if it was some capacitors, to smooth the output of the generators.”
Because I work in the mining industry and could be expected to know a little about this.
Ender
However this Liebherr Mining truck does run on a battery.
http://www.engineeringwithabs.ch/t282.htm
Beutiful, and that Liebherr is just what I need for my kitty litter tray. Would Toys R Us have one?
Ender is just one of these ludicrous retirees who think they can build anything – car, truck, plane, power station, much better than anyone who has been doing so for decades.
Bill
I don’t know I think it looks like some kind of Leggo project.
bill – “Ender is just one of these ludicrous retirees who think they can build anything”
How do you know that I am a retiree? How do you know what I have built??????
Louis – “You really do yourself credit vilifying these scientists by calling their work nu-physics.”
I’m not – your brand of nu-physics has nothing to do with these people’s work.
Ender,
“I’m not – your brand of nu-physics has nothing to do with these people’s work.”
Well you better show everyone here how my nu-physics is different to these other’s work.
Louis, Ender,
The same propulsion setup is used in locomotives. A diesel drives a generator, which in turn, powers the motors which drive the wheels.
This setup provides, in essence, an infinitely variable transmission which can apply full power to the wheels at any nonzero speed (up to the maximum).
Schiller,
That’s what I posted above, mining trucks are like diesel electric locos. Ender thinks there is large battery or storage device between the generator and the wheel motors.
Louis,
Al Gore’s Carbon Exchange is heavily invested in General Electric, which builds the diesel/electric drives for locomotives and such.
Perhaps that is why Ender thinks these units are “green hybrids”.
Innocence by association, and all that.
Ender: “…5 or 10 ton module…replaced in a couple of seconds.”
I’d like to see that! How many machines and how many modules. OH&S would have a field day!
Schiller,
Yes, it is a complex world this green tainted one, things are often not what they seem.
Louis – “That’s what I posted above, mining trucks are like diesel electric locos. Ender thinks there is large battery or storage device between the generator and the wheel motors.”
Actually I don’t think this at all. I am asking you as, apparently you are diesel truck expert now, how do you know there is not? It could be a simple as a couple of supercaps to smooth the generator output. I am guessing that there is nothing more than this however the step to a hybrid with a battery is quite small.
However it is the combination of IC engine and electric motor that makes it a hybrid not so much the battery.
Schiller – “‘d like to see that! How many machines and how many modules. OH&S would have a field day!”
Absolutely Schiller I agree with you. However apparently some really smart people have come up with this brand new shipping method called containers and have devised really clever methods of quickly moving these large heavy modules:
Don’t think it will catch on though.
Ender
I am not a diesel expert – you blather pure nonsense.
You provide the evidence they have since you assert it.
From John Ray’s Greenie Watch – letter to The Australian.
The Prius is a huge waste of resources
The following is a clearly correct letter to the editor of “The Australian” by Anthony Hordern of Jamison, ACT
POLITICIANS’ comments about “green’’ cars are merely techno-babble they have picked up somewhere but don’t really understand.
Hybrid vehicles are at best expensive and inefficient. Inefficient because they have two power sources instead of one, two control systems instead of one, two losses in converting mechanical power to electrical power and back again, two sources of electrical “slippage’’ (generators and motors) instead of none in a manual transmission, plus they have heavy batteries to carry around. And those costly batteries need to be replaced every two to three years.
Meanwhile, so-called “zero-emission’’vehicles require much new science before they are available in the showroom, if ever. Hydrogen takes more power to produce than it replaces and “plug-in’’ electric cars are not the answer either. Techno-illiterates assume that pollution in the Latrobe and Hunter valleys simply disappears.
Turbo diesel is the way to go right now. The technology is well proven, diesel engines are inherently more efficient than petrol ones and they last longer.
Surely the four-cylinder engine plant Holden is closing at Fishermans Bend in Melbourne could readly produce modern turbo-diesel engines with minimum re-tooling and without funds from the taxpayer.
Louis – “I am not a diesel expert – you blather pure nonsense.
You provide the evidence they have since you assert it.”
Yes I agree you are not a diesel expert however you claimed that you knew about these things because you worked in the mining industry. How can you say that the trucks do not have any storage? I am not asserting that they have it necessarily just that you cannot rule out they they might have some storage there in the drivetrain.
Lets start on this letter that you seem unable to see the falsehoods in:
“Inefficient because they have two power sources instead of one, two control systems instead of one, two losses in converting mechanical power to electrical power and back again, two sources of electrical “slippage’’ (generators and motors) instead of none in a manual transmission,”
So I assume that this vehicle he alludes to has neither a starter motor or alternator? The Prius really only has enlarged the starter motor and alternator along with the battery, and transferred it by a power sharing transmission that is no more inefficient than a normal automatic. Having said that a battery electric car is more efficient still and is the ultimate solution in my view.
“And those costly batteries need to be replaced every two to three years.”
The company I used to work for got a Prius in 2004 when they came out. Still going strong on the original battery. Nobody I talk to that has the previous model Prius has had to replace the battery and the oldest of these is approaching 8 years. This is an ignorant falsehood as the battery in a Prius will last the life of the car.
“Meanwhile, so-called “zero-emission’’vehicles require much new science before they are available in the showroom”
BEVs require no new science and are ready to go today.
“Hydrogen takes more power to produce than it replaces and “plug-in’’ electric cars are not the answer either.”
I agree with the hydrogen however why are not PHEVS the answer – he just asserts it!
“Turbo diesel is the way to go right now. The technology is well proven, diesel engines are inherently more efficient than petrol ones and they last longer.”
Yes turbo diesels are good for the moment but still need diesel to run them. As it get more expensive and scarce BEVs and PHEVs will be the answer.
Other than practically all of his statements it is clearly correct.
Meanwhile, back at the dogbox Prius, cab companies in Sydney have several on the road, with Legion Cabs having one needing a new diff after 250,000kms and 3 years later costing around $2,800. A Falcon could expect 500,000 – 800,000kms and cost $1200. Don’t know what that Prius was doing only those kms in 3 years, because a falcon could reasonably expect to do 500,000+ kms in that time. Seems as though the Prius is not quite up to it.
Ender,
“This is an ignorant falsehood as the battery in a Prius will last the life of the car.”
Agreed up to a point, I thought the battery packs were guaranteed for 8 years? Maybe that is the life of the car? I did come across a comment piece by an Australian motoring correspondent who has a Prius and a Honda Civic HV. The Prius had been in his garage for some time waiting for a new battery pack. He’s now buying a diesel.
“Yes turbo diesels are good for the moment but still need diesel to run them.”
Absolutely, it’s an interim measure – I intend mine to last maybe 5 years until the private transport picture becomes clearer – it’s a very muddy pool at the moment.
“As it get more expensive and scarce BEVs and PHEVs will be the answer.”
If they’re the answer I’m not sure we’re asking the right question. I’m yet to be convinced that either of those technologies will provide long-distance travel without support from fossil fuel. Which leaves urban travel – and I think there are better alternatives that don’t involve the use of powered, privately-owned, vehicles.
Just did some Monday research… my always very reliable source informs me the $2800 Prius diff I seem to recall seeing somewhere, is in fact closer to a $5000 repair and in the bargain took 2-3 days, whereas the Falcon diff takes 2-3 hours.
Hmmm, could be the new automotive paradigm, where less is more!
To do a DYI service one’s Prius:
*Don’t touch any orange coloured cable, wire, plastic plug or switch.
*Remove the key from the ignition when changing oil, as the motor may start at any time.
*Coolant flush: under the left headlight is a hot coolant storage tank. The coolant is circulated to the cylinder head 5 hours after switch off to keep the motor warm for restart.
Disconnect the 12v pump on the coolant storage tank (stainless steel and round) before releasing the coolant pressure cap, take care, this can still blow up in your face!
*The dashboard readout is the high alter. It is essential that correct engine oil is added, that tyre pressures are correct and that wheel alignment is maintained otherwise Kms/L will suffer.
*High voltage linesman gloves are recommended for when fiddling with the battery pack. It packs enough wack to do you in!
NiMH batteries are not partial to long storage or hot climate, so purchasing 2nd hand units could be a drama.
*Oh… and you can the change tyres.