From today’s Times:
China’s drive for wealth means end of our low-carbon dreams
Hu Jintao wants to make every Chinese twice as rich by 2020. He has done it once – in just five years, income per capita doubled to $2,000 (£983) – and the only obstacle in the Chinese President’s path is the fuel needed to stoke the boiler in China’s locomotive.
The president needs more copper, iron ore, zinc and natural gas. Above all, he needs more coal to keep the power stations humming nicely and more oil for Chinese cars and lorries. China accounts for more than a third of world demand for coal and the price in Australia soared this year as the People’s Republic switched from being an exporter to being an importer. If Mr Hu had a message for the world in his address to the Communist Party National Congress, it was this: we will burn our coal and, if we have to, we will burn yours, too.
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
The leader has spoken. In words that would have to be inspirationalto vast numbers of his people. China, already the leading Co2 emitter will not, and cannot, be stopped.
Under Kyoto or any other scheme, the developed world’s attempt to limit Co2 emissions will now amount to nothing.
For those who believe that incrasing CO2 levels are going to alter climate and toast us, adaption is the only option. The levels are going to increase.
For those who consider that the big environmental problem is fine particle pollution, rapid adoption of clean technology is the only way to mitigate these impacts.
The leader has spoken, In the most influential words of the decade. An inconvenient truth indeed.
Whats inconvenient about this?
He also spoke honestly and openly about the many environmental and social issues his country faces – more than can be said of our trusty leaders. China has targets for clean energy supply, I believe 20% by 2020. For a country that has been systematically bled for wealth by the west, I’d say thats a pretty big slap in the face for us.
If anything, Paul, by pinning the problem on China you highlight your complete ignorance and/or reluctance to acknowledge the historical circumstance which allow you to buy your Big screen TV for peanuts and kick back in the lap of luxury. Meanwhile millions of Chinese are abused at work so you can pay a few quid less for your sneakers.
What a cop out. Blame the emissions on China. The lowest of low blows.
If the west had pulled its finger out we would be supplying clean baseload with solar thermal, wave power, and wind/hybrid systems by now. But no, we’ve dragged our feet and instead of taking on the probelm we shift the buck. Weak
Anthony, you sound very idealistic, but it is a cop out to sit behind a keyboard casting aspersions at your own culture. Why don’t you think about moving to China and starting up a business using best practice OH&S principles, Australian level pay and conditions and strict environmental safeguards?
Show them how it’s done, make a fortune and donate it to the worthy cause of your choice. The worst that could happen is that you would have some experiences that would make the rest of us green with envy!
Anthony,
Stop this crap about abusing millions of Chinese (or other workers) so we can pay a few dollars less for our sneakers.
These people in the factories earn more money than they could ever earn in farming, live a significantly better lifestyle, and probably supporting their extended family.
The Australian government, through AusAID, is spending a fair amount of your money in improving training facilities in developing countries for the exact purpose of enabling these people to get the education and skills to be able to work in these factories.
So keep on buying your sneakers, because you are supporting an otherwise potentially starving Chinese family.
Why is it a cop-out to be critical of my own culture? You know nothing about what i do and how I live.
In case you didn’t realise, you can choose to purchase products based on where they come from and how they are made. Paul – you sound like you almost like the idea of an ethical business over there yourself?
Pirate Pete – you live a happy delusion. Getting them off the land and into the coal mines is great for the bank balance too hey? Especially if you have life insurance. Who are you going to buy your sneakers off when the currency floats?
I have no problem with AusAID. Double it, and while you are there stop spending on money on black holes like clean coal, freeways, tax breaks for new cars, tax deductions for uranium exploration, tax deductions for speculative investments, moronic political advertisements, and so on and so on ad infinitum
Kevin Rudd wants us to endorse Kyotos Interruptus which makes it very clear that China has zero obligation to reduce any emissions and a blank cheque to attract as many high emission industries from the west as possible.
This line about impoverished third world rights to emit is pure leftist bull$hit. Most of the emissions from third world nations are made by the consumption behaviours of their affluent elites. China may well have 1300 million inhabitants with an average annual income of $2,000 but this masks the fact that the richest 25% (almost the same population as the USA) already have disposable incomes similar to the average American and emissions to match.
It is the most extraordinarily perverse logic that can legitimise and excuse the indulgences of an affluent minority by reference to the poverty of a rural majority.
And speaking of “Indulgences”, isn’t it ironic that after five centuries of intellectual ferment and creativity, the best concept the IPCC can come up with is a thing called a Carbon Credit, the contemporary equivalent of a corrupt, 15th century Papal Indulgence.
Al Gore for Pope?
Anthony all I know about you is that you sign yourself “Anthony” on this blog. And you like trying to score points in the debating game we play here. And you sound like a student radical with not much experience in the real world.
It would just be a guess on my part to suggest that you prefer symbolic gestures that don’t inconvenience you very much to actually doing something to demonstate that your ideas work. But that’s what I’m thinking.
Actually I don’t think what you call an ethical business would work in China. No more than giving process workers in Australia a six figure salary and a thirty hour work week would succeed here. The market would kill it.
You’re right paul, not having a TV or car don’t inconvenience me much. Using less than 2kWh and 60l water a day in a house of 2 doesn’t inconvience me much. Not eating red meat doesn’t inconvenience me much. Buying and restoring 2nd hand furniture doesn’t inconvenience me much. In fact, my lifestyle is very convient, healthy and very low in environmental impact. No-one is talking about radical change Paul – it’ just for people like you, lifestyle, freedom and convenience means being as big a wanker as you can, in as many places as you can – and you don’t care who pays for your self indulgence.
As for contributions outside of my personal lifestyle…. well, I’m young Paul, I have time and i am working on a project as I type. I’ll know in 2 months if its getting the go ahead so I would gladly come back and rub it in your face if it goes forward.
But it sounds like your an old bloke with tired ideas, sick of debating them and more willing to make empty references to warmongering and point scoring.
As for Motty – yeah, you’re right. Lets sit on the sidelines and watch as our economy becomes irrelevant faster than you can say ‘where is my Yum Cha?’
Pirate Pete – “These people in the factories earn more money than they could ever earn in farming, live a significantly better lifestyle, and probably supporting their extended family.’
So the workers in poor countries that are paid 1% of what Western workers are paid should be grateful that they are not starving eh? That is a pretty shallow and patronising attitude. A significantly better lifestyle working 12 hours a day with terrible working conditions in a sweat shop that in Australia would be condemned in an instant? Perhaps you should consider the arrogance and ignorance in this attitude.
I am not surprised that you can be skeptical of global warming. Ignoring scientific evidence that your lifestyle is hurting the planet is one thing however ignoring the human suffering that produces a lot of your consumer goods is quite another.
Paul – “Actually I don’t think what you call an ethical business would work in China”
No of course it would not work because then our Plasma TVs would cost $20 000 and we could not afford them. Of course Chinese people are so different to us white Australians they do not mind being slaves. Just keep the peasants repressed and keep them churning out the trinkets is what is needed. Now if you cannot see the irony and contempt dripping from these words then you are truly lost.
Can you ignore this either of you:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_n1_v57/ai_19016001
” One woman, Karim, tells me that more than half of these women are sick. They make Mattel’s Barbie dous in an environment that would probably have been banned as dangerous anywhere in the First World. Many of the workers have respiratory infections, their lungs fifled with dust from fabrics in the factory. And not only dust: others work with lead and other chemicals and suffer from chronic lead poisoning. They can wear masks, of course, but first they have to buy them. And as they make a mere four to five dollars a day – from which they must also buy their uniforms and scissors – most simply can’t afford the protection.
Thanks to John Osolnick, an American working in Bangkok, I obtained access to the Dynamics factory (naturall, no tape or video recorders were allowed inside). I saw hundreds of women and children stuffing, cutting, dressing, and assembling Barbie dolls – as weu as the Lion Kings my daughter worships and other Disney properties that dazzle me.
Many of these factory workers suffer from pains in their hands, necks, and shoulders. Others experience nausea and dizziness and suffer from hair and memory loss. They sleep badly. The most common complaints, however, are a shortage of breath and infections in and around the throat. More than 75 percent of the people working here have breathing problems. The air in the factory is so dusty that even the managers don’t come in for fear of being contaminated. And of the hundreds of workers I saw, all of them, without exception, have black walls under their eyes.
One woman told me, “It sometimes gets so hot and moist in here that some of us faint.” A small number of workers have tried to organize, she said, but there is an overall fear that they will be fired and that “no one will take care of us if we do not work.” There is also the fear of physical harm. “Women in Thailand are vulnerable,” another worker tells me. “We have to think of our parents in Chiang Mai and our small brothers and sisters who go to school. Who is going to pay for them if we don’t?” It is a catch-22 situation: if they don’t work, their relatives get nothing, if they do work, they get sick from all the chemicals and dust.”
Nice isn’t it
ps
Motty, if you want someone to blame for carbon credits look no further than your backyard, the neocon free market illusionists – now you see the free hand, no you don’t!
Whoa, settle down, Anthony and Ender, I get it you’re both very compassionate people. That’s wonderful. Nice to see you are both making such a difference.
Your insults to me are quite misplaced. I’m compassionate too. I just don’t happen to agree with the garbage you both spout. Observation shows that free markets and a growing economy go hand in hand and are the best way for people to escape poverty.
While the conditions described in the factory are terrible, one wonders what the alternative is for the workers, that they stay there. As the Thai economy grows, do you think that conditions might improve? Anyway, I would be happy if Barbie dolls, plasma screens or anything else cost more, as I am free to choose to buy or not, depending on my income. If they cost a lot more, though, people wouldn’t buy them, then some or all of the factories would close, and the workers would presumably return to whatever existence they are currently trying to avoid.
Ender, your implication that I am a racist is despicable. An apology is in order.
Anthony, if you start flinging poo, expect some of it to be returned, so don’t be such a sissy. I’m still waiting for your statement on the validity of models, or are you waiting for Luke to say something first, so you can agree with him.
” Hu Jintao wants to make every Chinese twice as rich by 2020″
I read in my morning paper that the gap between very rich people and poor people is growing for every day in China…
“Contrary to fur-industry propaganda, fur production destroys the environment. The amount of energy needed to produce a real fur coat from ranch-raised animal skins is approximately 20 times that needed to produce a fake fur garment. Nor is fur (like leather) biodegradable, thanks to the chemical treatment applied to stop the fur from rotting. The process of using these chemicals is also dangerous because it can cause water contamination. ”
So the myth that fur is more environmentally friendly than the faked ones or synthetics is totally misleading…
OOOPS! Posted my comment on the wrong thread!!!!
Paul, my my, thats a quick backtrack. Now the bog is about the ability of free markets to reduce poverty? Firstly, what is your measure of poverty? Secondly, where on earth do we have free markets? Depending on how you define it, poverty has accelerated with economic growth in Australia (thats for Ann).
Free market theory is just that, it’s not based on observation at all. You can’t observe free markets because they are not there. Politics, monopoloy power, oligopolies all conflate free market theory in practice. For someone who values real world experience Paul, you don’t seem to understand it very well. Based on your scenario of price goes up, people go out of work, you seem to have quite a simplistic world view.
As for climate models, I’m not the one who has rubbished them and used them to support my arguments at the same time so i don’t really feel i need to justify myself.
In the interest of being a good sport though, I have never seen or used or model so really don’t know much about them first hand. From what I understand they are based on our best understanding of real world physics and while not 100% accurate, given appropriate input data (i understand they don’t model ice melt very well), are valuable at predicting future trends.
I personally don’t think you even need the AGW argument to warrant making changes to how we harness and use energy which makes the models kind of irrelevent from where I stand.
Paul – “Ender, your implication that I am a racist is despicable. An apology is in order.”
Sure I apologise.
The thing is that when you say “Actually I don’t think what you call an ethical business would work in China” you are opening yourself up to this sort of charge. The average Chinese person is no different in any way from you or I and the implication is that when you say something like this that you think Chinese people are somehow different to us.
That is not meant to diminish my apology – you need to be more careful with your language however.
I don’t have a large screen TV – still CRT I’m afraid.
Kyoto doesn’t apply to China, which helps keep down manufacturing costs.
Well done Anthony, change of subject with a triple twist in the pike position. When I gave my opinion on models you made a rather crude comment about the danger that straddling a fence so hard might pose to my health. Well right back at you, sonny.
Apology accepted Ender. Not to diminish my acceptance, but you need to try and understand what you read a little more, as my comment had zero to do with ethical standards in China. Also it is factually incorrect to say that a person of Chinese ethnicity is exactly the same as one of Causasian ethnicity. (And do you know what my ethnic origin is, or did you just assume?)
Paul I don’t have a plasma screen either, my car is 1996 vintage, no swimming pool and split system air conditioning only in the lounge. I’m doing my bit to save the planet too!
Ender has a pool though, I’m pretty sure. What about A/C, Ender, hope you haven’t succumbed to the temptations of civilisation too much?
More iron, more copper, more metal – I will be employed until my zimmer frame collapses from fatigue!
This is a commodities boom that will last for decades and I can assure you all that if we don’t find it and sell it to China and India, then they will come and get it themselves. Not by invasion but by money.
Yes, Luis, and thank goodness they are prepared to secure the resources they need via money.
Paul – just following your lead old mate.
As for sitting on the fence, maybe I didn’t make myself clear. I trust the scientists who are doing the climate modelling – I think models are valuable for making judgements about future climate trends. If you don’t know what side of the fence I am on then i can’t hep you.
Oh dear, Anthony has reduced it all to one of those boorish undergrad wanks about markets vs command economy. This student poverty stuff being lauded as some sort of higher intellectual aesthetic is sooooooh cliched. Believe me, it will pass, you will either drop out or graduate, get a job etc, and then some day you will overhear the stuff you sprout now and duck for cover.
The flaws in climate models are well known and acknowledged – no skill has been demonstrated in predicting the future.
Paul – “Ender has a pool though, I’m pretty sure. What about A/C, Ender, hope you haven’t succumbed to the temptations of civilisation too much?”
As I have a family I try to balance what I believe with what my family will stand before running away. So yes I do have a pool however it is covered at all times and the pumps are run for the minimum time.
I have evaporative air-con that is very effective in Perth and runs 95% of the time just on fan or exhaust. I am considering a reverse cycle air con (6 star) for heating as I have nowhere I can put a gas heater safely. For 500W I can heat my house with a 6 star reverse cycle heat pump.
It is a question of balance – I am not a greenie living in a cave and never will be.
Paul Biggs – “The flaws in climate models are well known and acknowledged – no skill has been demonstrated in predicting the future.”
Yes an mostly by the scientists that use them. They are not used for predicting the future but for modelling what could happen if certain changes were made and for learning about the Earths climate with the only thing with changeable parameters.
Nothing can predict the future – for that I suggest that you get out your crystal ball.
ian, you are truly moronic. If you don’t want to engage in a debate about economic theory and practice then shoulder arms. If you want to engage in it, then fine, quit the smoke and mirrors and engage in it.
making (incorrect) guesses about who I am, what I have done and how I will see the world in the future just reinforces your image as a delusionist who can’t see past his own ignorance and bias.