For a long time now its been predicted that the world will run out of food. According to Jared Diamond and other doomsayers, we are mining our soils, depleting our water reserves and now, according to Al Gore, we also have a climate crisis.
The latest United Nation’s report on climate change** was, however, surprisingly upbeat for agriculture stating that:
“Crop productivity is projected to increase slightly at mid to high latitudes for local mean temperature increases of up to 1-3°C depending on the crop, and then decrease beyond that in some regions.
“At lower latitudes, especially seasonally dry and tropical regions, crop productivity is projected to decrease for even small local temperature increases (1-2°C), which would increase risk of hunger.
“Globally, the potential for food production is projected to increase with increases in local average
temperature over a range of 1-3°C, but above this it is projected to decrease.
“Adaptations such as altered cultivars and planting times allow low and mid- to high latitude cereal yields to be maintained at or above baseline yields for modest warming.
“Increases in the frequency of droughts and floods are projected to affect local production negatively, especially in subsistence sectors at low latitudes.”
Then yesterday I read at ABC Online that the United Nations predicts a surge in world cereal production:
“A United Nations food body is predicting world cereal production will increase by nearly 4.5 per cent this year, to a record 2 billion tonnes.
“The Food and Agriculture Organisation estimates the bulk of the increase will be in maize, with a bumper crop already being gathered in South America and US plantings up sharply.
“It is also forecasting wheat production will rise 5 per cent to 626 million tonnes.”
Even in Australia, with this terrible drought, I’ve been told the prediction is for a record, or near record, wheat harvest this season.
—————————————-
** Working Group II Contribution to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Fourth Assessment Report
Climate Change 2007: Climate Change Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability Summary for Policymakers
http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM6avr07.pdf
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
Corn production is booming not to feed people but because of oil prices.
Why are you so blind? Can’t you see that the economic system and freedom och economics create welth and the rich outcome of food production as well? North vs South Korea. Old commie Soviet system vs the west. Or why not Zimbabwe 30 years ago, then richest in Afrika with a flourishing industry for natural resources and perfect agriculture conditions, vs its poor not so agricultural friendly neighbours Zambia with less natural recources, then poorest in Afrika. Today these two countries has changed the poor vs rich roll to the completely opposite, all due to economics.
The resources in the soil NEVER disappears!!! I have first hand experience on this issue as a quite well educated in the agricultural business.
Don’t belive in data agrigation which with some help of extrapolation makes starvation forecasts. Extrapolation *can* be right, but data must not be aggregated and extrapolated with no deep analasys. Analasys must be done for categories on adequat levels and forecasts must include all known factors. The extrapolation in the future is rubbish stupidity from not well thinking people.
Warmer climate has always meant richer outcome from food production. No exception now of course.
Well I’m sure the good ol’ US of A will gladly share their bumper harvest with Africa. As I’ve always said Jen – God loves WASP North American cereal producers.
AGW will create more haves and have nots.
How smart are we in SE Q?
15000 years back most humans in our latitudes probably lived in caves. 8-4000 years back we thought it was time to come out and build with sticks n mud. Today many live in high rise. Catching their water has become “the” major problem. See ABC 7.30
Who’z growing their food? What a laugh!
Solutions won’t be found about Brisbane in a hurry or in Jen’s Land.
Online Opinion VK3AUU said today “I have just flown over about five hundred kilometres of virtually bare dirt across half of Victoria and New South Wales and it looks like we will be struggling to feed the current population if the present rainfall pattern continues”.
Let’s see wots at work here, some irregular rainfall pattern? IPCC 2007 V1 said something about it, V2 says more.
What’s the blog say Jennifer? Are some of us just wasting our time?
Where our crops are flourishing now downunder is the big issue.
gavin,
not all of Australia is suffering drought to the extent of our southern regions. Plenty of beef production up north, as well as full production from the Ord irrigation scheme. I even hear the banana industry is back on the job. Further drought will spur some creative recipes though.
Jen,
Most of the surge in cereals will be at the expense of other food crops like soya beans and converting from pasture to cultivation. I even heard today on the radio that Heinz are going to have trouble ensuring enough navy bean production for their baked beans, such is the swing to corn.
Something like 30% of the worlds food ends up wasted, not just in leftovers but through inadequate storage and the fact that gluts occur and harvesting isn’t profitable. I don’t know if weather damage to crops is included in the 30% but if we are hungry enough we might even eat blemished produce.
If the rain falls in the next few months there is potential for a huge wheat planting. There are plenty of fallow fields around and the price is favourable.
Historically if Qld has a harvest of less than 1 million tonnes(as last year was) the subsequent crop has been above average. I hope it holds true.
Jen, it’s my understanding that the record wheat harvest is predicted on the basis that the drought will break. Planting has only just begun or soon will, so there is plenty of time for that to happen, but it hasn’t happened yet and the SOI still isn’t in positive territory.
Though I’m wondering, are you actually implying that there will be a record harvest if this ‘terrible drought’ continues?
The company I work for is sponsoring Al Gore to speak here to enlighten us on climate change (and lighten us by $125,000). Do you think I should buy a $75 ticket or just go out and build a solar thermal power plant and use it to grow some wheat?
http://www.gov.sk.ca/news?newsId=80aa5a8b-7bc7-4a38-842e-feae662d3fc7
http://www.shpegs.org/background.html
Jen – your last sentence “Even in Australia, with this terrible drought, I’ve been told the prediction is for a record, or near record, wheat harvest this season. ”
Even with this terrible drought .. .. .. looks like “phew we’re getting back to normal”. But was is normal.
Darling Downs wheat farmer – profit 3 years in 10, make even 4 years in 10, lose money 3 years in ten.
It’s the long term that matters.
What do you reckon a shift in those already precarious odds might do to economic sustainability.
CURRENT STATUS as at 28th March 2007
Next update expected by 11th April 2007 (two weeks after this update).
Summary: Pacific cooling slows, conditions currently neutral
Central to eastern Pacific sea-surface temperatures have remained close to average during March, following the rapid cooling that took place during January and February at the end of the 2006/07 El Niño event. The SOI, Trade Winds and Pacific cloud patterns are other ENSO indicators which are currently in a neutral phase. There appears to be little chance of a return to El Niño conditions in 2007, with a continuation of neutral, or a switch to La Niña conditions, the more likely outcomes.
A La Niña in 2007?
The chance of a La Niña developing in 2007 is thought to be higher than the long-term average (which is about one in five or 20%) because
(a) they have a tendency to follow an El Niño;
(b) the 2006/07 El Niño decayed somewhat earlier than normal thereby giving time for a La Niña to begin developing during the critical March to June period; and
(c) a large pool of cold sub-surface water remains in the central to eastern tropical Pacific Ocean and is starting to affect surface temperatures in the region.
La Niña events are generally associated with wetter than normal conditions across much of the eastern half of the country from about autumn.
I’ve posted on this topic here:
http://n3xus6.blogspot.com/2007/01/problem-greater-than-climate-change.html
The danger is not running out of food, it’s failing to increase production at a similar rate to demand. Climate change is but one of a range of factors that have the potential to negatively impact on future food production.
I’m unsure how the US growing extra maize for oil (and less of other food crops) and Australia growing extra wheat if it rains and prices remain comparatively high (with less other crops planted) is a rosy picture.
I’m still kind of optimistic that with some fairly major changes the challenges can be met, but lets not start patting ourselves on the back yet.
Gosh,
Our greatest concern should be that we have very nearly reached the end of receiving net benefits from global warming.
With the increase in CO2, we’ve scarcely been able to warm the world in any measurable way. Still, the increase in plant growth resulting from more CO2 should be harnessed for food production as well as we can manage.
Of course, this puts a premium on increasing anthro CO2 output, but more CO2 is good for everyone. CO2 concentrations are so high that if they became 20 percent greater, it might raise planet temps a fiftieth of one degree.
The risk/benefit ratio is enormous. More CO2, more crops, more food, in exchange for a temperature difference that can’t credibly be measured.
Hmm. But then, we kill black Africans for the sake of bird eggshells. They’re dead people walking, it’s all natural, you will feel good if you don’t drive an SUV.
You can feel real good being a Christian if it’s the Jews they’re killing.
You can feel real good being white and affluent when it’s dark subsistence farmers that die for your ideology. Unwillingly.
Three decades under the yoke of green political initiatives has killed more than all tyrants in the world’s history, and with the anti-humanist AGW heresy, both atheists and theists must pray that this must stop.
Rot schiller: plain tommyrot!
Schiller – you believe in Jack’s beanstalk – no rain in Africa and Australia = no CO2 benefit.
The sooner the Democrats get in and carbon tax and legislate you rednecks into the stone age the better. Give you something to really grizzle about.
I’ve asked you before to name two black Africans who have died over eggshells and you can’t – so by deduction there’s none at all. i.e. you’re talking crap.
I notice that our guys are bailing you sepos again. In Afghanistan – you know – where the “real” terrorists are. And how do you treat your allies – give us more El Ninos from your CO2 – – you bastards. Fair weather friends.
P.S. Nice try on the teensy weensy temp rise. Irrelevant as you well know. Tails of teh distribution are the issue.
In a world of climate change, where there could be food shortages due to reduced rainfall, don’t expect to make money when your farm is in an area of reduced rainfall. The market is jumping, but the externalities aren’t coming to the party.
So who are you going to carbon tax Luke and how will it be of benefit to developing countries?
As that great cynic Jesus Christ once said, “The poor will always be with us”.
All of a sudden, the poor are a major consideration, except when they don’t take part in carbon trading schemes, in which case, why should we?
Whilst people remain ignorant of managing money, “The poor will always be with us”.
You could use the same analogy with GW; “Whilst people remain ignorant of managing carbon, global warming will always be with us”
And how do we manage it rog?
Luke, the rise in malarial mortality since the banning of DDT is well documented and very significant. So don’t try on this “name me two people” crap.
And you still persist in this stupid binary logic of ‘all one or all the other’ in relation to rain and CO2. Tell us which IPCC report predicts zero rain in either Africa or Australia? There MAY be a reduction in rain on both continents, there will certainly not be an end to rain on either.
So that means reduced rain offset by improved water use efficiency from CO2 fertilisation. But I suppose that argument requires you to consider more than two variables which reduces your retention rate to zero, doesn’t it?
It demonstrates that we do actually have a global problem but it is entirely manifest between your ears.
Get out of boutique Byron Bay goober ! You may notice some trends.
As fo DDT – documented? – name the refs or be known as a useless gimp – don’t come this self evident crap mate. If there’s so many people surely you can name two – you can’t. And you don’t care one iota either. Neither does Schiller. All crocodle tears.
Go and shoot a koala or blow up a bilby colony.
You obviously don’t know the first thing about CO2 literature either. Try some FACE results instead of little cylinders in phytotrons. Tosser.
Ian, are you saying farmers won’t need as much water, because there will be more CO2 in the air acting as a fertiliser?
Luke,
FACE results have yielded some interesting results. However they are only an insight into what may occur with elevated CO2 levels. The nature of face experiments is that they act upon a small sample size (not enough trees), there are not enough replicants (basic experimental design), and they isolate out the effects of the surrounding forest, especially the impacts of wind. The CO2 concentrations generally applied in face experiments are higher than what may be encountered in real cicumstances.
Notwithstanding all that, FACE tells us a little about water usage (no wind effects however) and plant growth under elevated CO2. FACE does confirm what some pot trials have shown and that is that C3 plants will perform well under elevated CO2. Bearing in mind that C3 plants did evolve under much greater concentrations of CO2 that exist today. It can and has been argued that FACE also demonstrate that C3 plants are not performing as efficiently as they could as today’s CO2 concentration is a small percentage of what it was under past climatic conditions.
It is C4 plants that may be disadvantaged as they evolved under lower CO2 concentrations and their response to elevated CO2 may differ between genus/species. Some may respond positively and some negitively.
Peter – yep exactly !
One thing for certain the 150 ships waiting off shore for our coal are bound to increase CO2 levels elsewhere soon.
How competitive are we growing timber or anything else green in this slower part of the world?
Amazingly Jennifer has not followed up on Howard’s concern yesterday re ports and exports.
SJT, the reason water efficiency will be greater is that the stomata(little pores on the leaf) open to extract CO2 from the air. In doing so moisture escapes. In a higher CO2 concentration these pores aren’topen for as long to gather the same amount of CO2 and less water will escape.
Presumably the whole photosynthesis process will be more efficient as a result.
Rojo that’s the theory – but global Free Atmosphere CO2 Experiments (FACE)where naturally growing plants are locally dosed with CO2 have given ambiguous results. Different to growth chambers.
Also discussion around woodlands whether CO2 will favour C3 plants = woody weeds and shrubs where C4 tropical grasses won’t do as well. So do you end up with more woody plants – combined with overgrazing and lack of fire could cause Cobar type woody weed thicket type problems. But the CO2 – C3/C4 story has been contested too – not clear.
Certainly CO2 isn’t magic pixie dust. Wheat growers know that big dollops of fertiliser are wasted in drier years but great in wet years. Similarly CO2 won’t make up for lack of water if that’s the limiting factor.
So great news for North American wheat growers – CO2 benefit, warmer means more land available higher up in Canada or more up the photosynthetic optimum curve for current USA locations. Lucky Schillsy.
I think the rainfall prognosis for Australia and Africa is a real concern under AGW. So climate change won’t affect the world evenly – look for winners and losers. With nation states, continents as well as natural systems.
Certainly if you were a multi-national agribusiness – geographic separation might be a good way of hedging bets against more variability under AGW.
Doing a “global Sir Sidney Kidman” ??
But if you a Mum & Dad Aussie outfit or an African small plot farmer – do you have access to such opportunities.
If our climate became more like the last 7 droughty years under AGW i.e. the 3 years boom, 4 break even, and 3 lose money years in ten year “average” formula – big adaptation required for the semi-arid zone agriculture and pastoralism.
And we still don’t know whether AGW will affect El Nino !
rojo: I reckoned H2O in transit was a rain trigger. Your so called “water efficiency” may well be a loss with that other essential yeild.
Let’s all hear it now for due point!
Dear Luke
So we “still don’t know whether AGW will affect El Nino”. Did we know whether our knowledge of El Nino could have predicted the below average rainfall in SE Qld and parts of NSW and Victoria over the past 5 to 6 years?
Blair
No – El Nino has had a role but much more than that. Neutral years didn’t deliver either. And save Cyclone Larry nothing in major relief from the Coral Sea.
My indulgent hunch. Either a natural cycle or that there is some evidence for the “Antarctic explanation” in terms of observations.
Natural – in that protracted droughts have happened before – coral core stuff – but why? Do we know why?
Or a combination os stratospheric ozone depletion and tropospheric increase in greenhouse gases changing southern hemisphere circulation. Rain bands down in the Southern Ocean not over land. Maybe also affecting circulation patterns so putting shear forces across the cyclone formation areas in the Coral Sea.
How – from changes in the Southern Annular Mode and polar vortex.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/296/5569/895
You can Google more from Jen’s blog archives.
Blair – does this mean we’re talking again?
gavin, I said efficiency. The crop won’t necessarily use less water it will just do more with the same amount. Evapotranspiration would likely be similar.
Plants in the carboniferous period had fewer stomates on a given leaf area than today due to higher CO2 levels. Pretty sure it rained then too.
Did you mean dew? or am I missing something.
luke, yes CO2 benefits are largely theory, much like the many other predictions we are presented with.
The majority of our food staples are C3 and are likely to benefit most ie. wheat barley rice and potatoes and could theoretically increase production by a third with a doubling of CO2 to 750ppm. Cotton is C3 too.
Corn and sugarcane are C4 plants and won’t benefit to the same extent due to different respiration characteristics. They would only gain through increased light intensity and heat(not excessive)and produce even at low CO2 levels due to their photosynthesis efficiency.
Specialist drought hardy plants will benefit least.
Fertiliser in a dry year is not wasted as it is there for the next opportunity, if it is not leached out by too much rain.
Poor title for a thread Jennifer. Sure there could be a surge in cereals this year but what you fail to understand is that the land is simply stolen from other crops returning lower gross margins eg legumes such as soybeans, cotton, rice, canola. Do you think they just make more land when they are running short of cereals?
sure rojo dew, (not due) = wet leaf!
Still, we do know that the FAO are only predicting an increase in production, and we all know how unpredictable forecasting can be.
Aaron,
“Do you think they just make more land when they are running short of cereals?”
In a sense,yes. Supply problems would result in acreage exiting the Conservation Reserve Program(CRP) in the US and from Set-Aside in the EU. Not to mention the huge areas of Brasillian Cerrado just begging to be developed.
I have decided to start up a new company.
It won’t sell carbon credits; it will sell global warming credits.
If you invest enough money, you will receive a chainsaw as a free bonus.
All of your money, I promise, will be invested in making the planet a colder place.
We like a cold planet, right?
My global cooling investment company is currently negotiating with NASA on selling real estate on Pluto.
We have problems with investors worried about Pluto exhibiting global warming, so we are looking at real estate opportunities in the Oort belt.
That would be the ultimate investment in cool. And cool real estate. Contact me personally for a prospectus on Oort Real Estate Ventures LLC and for a small management fee, you can offset your global warming by investing in a really cool place.
Schillso – speaking of cereals we have a breakfast cereal in Australia called “Just Right”. Not too heavy – not too light. “Just right”.
No we don’t want freezing cold either. Nor drought. Nor heatwaves. No bloody big hurricanes. We want “just right” climate. So start up the “Just right climate company”. Not too much forcing, Not too little. Just right.
Remember Schillsy-saurus – Jesus may love you but the rest of us don’t.
Isn’t the point of the global warming concern that what we are experiencing now is only the start of what is to come?
Luke: “Just Right”. Not too heavy – not too light. “Just right” applied to our soils leads to a ghastly picture in this region (Murrumbidgee catchment).
Soil surface now is so fine water can’t sink. Runnoff is evaporated before it hits stream side. Dew cant last either in this drying air. Tough lawn weeds are all dead.
Actewagl provide another picture in their rainfall and dam level charts
http://www.actewagl.com.au/water/facts/rainfall.aspx
Bendora Dam our major producer is a sad case. Authorities say we got less than 10% of “normal” inflows. CSIRO predictions have been way out. We must ask if that was the “politics” of “bad luck”
http://www.actewagl.com.au/water/facts/damCapacity.aspx
I’m seriously thinking of shifting camp soon, but where?
Any suggestions based on current rainfall, dam levels and other major services like health and transport most welcome.
Rojo the 30 million acres in CRP are the US’s poorest 30 million and as such will be the 30 million most expensive (fertilizer has doubled) to farm with poor nutrient status, poor nutrient holding capacity and an obscene weed burden. When you are paid to retire country from production you always dump the marginal areas. Bringing this land back into production will likley only result in grazing potential.
Brazil’s cerrado soils are generally ONLY suited to soybeans since they are aluminium toxic. So no hope for cereals there either. There are many rural myths out there and one of them is that we can bring a whole bunch of new lands into production. Beef prices are forging new record highs since there are shortages unfolding globally relative to growing demand so cerrado soils could well remain under low cost, low risk grazing beef production.
Remember cereals are competing with other crops for acres … Just creating shortages in other crops next year.
Gavin – depends on exactly what you want but still reasonable rainfall quite close to the coast itself and mild climate – say places between Port Stephens NSW to Hervey Bay Qld.
Baked beans supply under threat
Tuesday, 10/04/2007
The supply of baked beans is under threat as world production decreases.
Heinz gets its key ingredient, navy beans, from the US and Canada, where production has halved because growers are opting to plant corn for the ethanol market.
And if current trends continue, there could be a rise in the price of baked beans.
Heinz Australia managing director Peter Widdows says the company will not be able to keep absorbing price increases.
“Sourcing beans from elsewhere is very difficult,” he said.
“We do require 65,000 tonnes of navy beans globally and there aren’t many places that can actually supply us.”
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/2006/s1893515.htm
HERE’S ONE FOR LUKE:
Drought to blame for high vegie prices
Friday, 13/04/2007
Cauliflower and broccoli are fetching record high prices, as food costs continue to be affected by the drought.
Crop failures in the eastern states from drought and frost mean unprecedented numbers of brassicas are being sent across the Nullarbor.
Grower Gary Ryan, from Manjimup in Western Australia, says he is getting a consistent $4.00 a head for the cauliflowers and plenty of orders for polythene boxes of broccoli.
“The broccoli’s going real well. Probably as good as if not better than the cauliflowers at this stage,” he said.
“Broccoli is sold a little bit different, it’s per eight kilo poly box. They’d be getting up to $60 per poly versus the base price of about $20, so quite phenomenal.”
Look you dopes. Get with the program.
The extra CO2 is growing plants like they’ve never grown in 40 million years.
You warmers have to face it that you are backing a fascist fraud.
Rubbish!
Cheezus, “baked beans under threat”
Well this will be the final straw for the British Navy, after the mad mullahs of Iran turned Hornblower into a pipsqueak now they will be without their beans.
Oh dearie me, wot are we to do.
GraemeBird says ““So, leaving modeling questions aside, what is the set of physical data that is the basis of the arguments for global warming?”
There is none. Its a hoax. If there is any data whatsoever that for a short time looked like some strange and excessive warming might be going on its a slight overshoot in the 1980’s and 1990’s. Where the air temperature overshot a little the solar activity.
But CO2 is a weak explanation of this since we cannot find any prior situation where we can make it that CO2 is the causal factor behind warming. And there are very plausible explanations which need to be explored if they haven’t already been explored.”
Pity about http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7135/full/nature05699.html
Oh drat.
Nighty nite !
You bet its a pity rog.
Its a pity you are doing the hoaxer thing and sending people on wild goose chases.
There is no evidence for catastrophic warming in your link and don’t pretend there is.
There is no evidence for the idea that a little bit of human-induced-warming during a brutal and pulverising ice age is a BAD thing on the wild-goose-chase link you dropped right there… And don’t pretend that there is.
However if you DISAGREE with my assessment of your wild-goose-chase-link…. Then GIVE….. THE EVIDENCE…. TO!!!!!ME!!!!!
GIVEITTOME!!!!
HAND IT OVER ROG.
Give me the evidence.
But send anybody on any more wild goose chases.
Well will you look at that.
ROG HAD NOTHING AT ALL!!!!!
He lied.
He simply linked to pay-per-view site.
There’s no evidence there. None at all. But he just linked a site where you need to pay $30 American to just read some shit.
THIS IS WHAT WE GET FROM THESE ANTI-SCIENCE LEFTIES.
Your behaviour in the past ROG has been questionable.
But then I now see that my problem was with that communist liar Luke.
Luke!!!! You stupid idiot!!!!
Where is your evidence for the likelihood of catastrophic global warming?
And where is your evidence that a little bit of human-induced-warming is a BAD thing during a brutal and pulverising ice age??
You are a fraud Luke.
Think about subjecting your seed to a DEAD-BANG-HALT.
Gavin you are clearly an idiot.
But as handicapped as you are I don’t suppose you are the utterly dreadful Gavin Schmidt……
Or are you?
Lets see the evidence fool.
Have a nice day (idiot).
Aaron,”Remember cereals are competing with other crops for acres … Just creating shortages in other crops next year.”
Hardly likely to forget, I said the same thing on this thread a few days ago.
I don’t expect the Cerrado to convert to cereals, but to the crops like soyabeans. To replace crops from other areas that have converted to cereal production. There are 300 million ha in the Cerrado. A lot of bean potential. Like tofu?
Wow ! Looks like we have ourselves a live one. So rarely does one get a chance to study a rabid fanatical one in captivity.
Motty can put his feet up and watch the bloodshed.
Dicky-Bird – you may find that Rog has views somewhat sympathetic to your own and that you may have just shot up one of your own. Try to be careful with the hellfire missile control switch and clearly identify your target before engaging.
Unless of course you’re just some mad nutcase – in which case – be my guest.
And we AGW dudes normally call the anti-AGW dudes “fascists” – so would normally call you a fascist – you don’t call me a fascist – comprende ! – and you in turn call us “greenies”, “commies” or “eco-marxists”. So would also pay to brush up on your political abuse terms. Schiller or Woody can help you with this. If you’re going to roast us try and get your derogatory terms focussed.
Oh yea – back to the point at hand – well I don’t think you have the intellectual material to discuss the issue of AGW with.
On “little bit of human-induced-warming during a brutal and pulverising ice age is a BAD thing ” Humans did this – wow ! You may find you’re only a few thousand years out.
If you’re weren’t such a dimwit you would (a) get enough from the reference abstract provided BY ME ACTUALLY NOT ROG or (b) find a pdf of the actual article within about 10 seconds. You see Dicky-Bird there’s this things called “The Internet” which has a variety of Search engines, one popular one being “Google.
Try these links to help you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet Al Gore actually created it did you know?
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google This actually was my original idea until it was commercialised.
And again “THIS IS WHAT WE GET FROM THESE ANTI-SCIENCE LEFTIES” – ummm – you may find referring someone to a paper in the journal Nature or Science is what “science lefties” do. Neanderthal “anti-science”, goofballs such as yourself, normally find your information in newspaper editorials, sleasy contrarian blogs, shopping malls and from within (up your bum for example).
“catastrophic global warming” – ummm gee – dat’s a hard one – not sure we promised that – but gee if you’d settle for negative effects of AGW – oh maybe the TAR, SPM, leaked 4AR and few thousand science papers. This information is acquired through a process that Schiller has even perfected – called “reading”.
try en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_(activity)
Graeme, as has been noted, broccoli isn’t getting with the program. I should know, it’s doubled in price recently, and there wasn’t any cyclone to cause it.
I have to say that I have followed GMB from Catallaxy to James Annan with some amusement.
Case in point: There’s some 1500 posts on this “Thread of Doom” – I guess more than a third of which is GMB’s unique slant on things.
http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=2650
On the other hand, I have to give credit to GMB – he does some thinking that I find interesting.
http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2007/01/27/continental-layout-and-ice-ages/
Obviously not being a computer geek, someone here took the trouble to make the above a bit more legible. It’s worth a read…
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=9246659&page=0
cheers
Arnost
Did any of you idiot warmers have some sort of argument for your case?
I mean ASIDE from the devastating(NOT) broccoli argument.
Because reviewing the above the broccoli argument appears to be the best argument that you have.
This is a planet hard-wired for catastrophic COOLING. So stop lying and admit you were wrong and either apologise or do the right thing and commit hari-kari.
Now do you have any evidence for the likelihood of catastrophic warming?
Or for the proposition that a little bit of human-induced warming is a BAD thing during a brutal and pulverising ice-age.
Stay focused. Its THAT evidence we are after and we aren’t after anything else.
And we particularly aren’t after fraudulent wild goose chases like what that idiot Luke tried on.
Luke. Come up with some evidence will you you lunatic.
Referring people to pay-per-view links is a wild goose chase. Its not evidence you fascist.
And your an idiot on politics as well since the fascists were leftists like yourself.
Now I’m not shelling out $30.
So why don’t you make the case in your own words.
Luke. Come up with some evidence will you you lunatic.
Referring people to pay-per-view links is a wild goose chase. Its not evidence you fascist.
And your an idiot on politics as well since the fascists were leftists like yourself.
Now I’m not shelling out $30.
So why don’t you make the case in your own words.
Graeme,
Chill, dude. Luke and people like him are caught up in the notion that anthropogenic global warming in a special way. They see AGW as a means which will lead us to world with a single government, via tight controls on energy use.
Luke & Co., Ltd. favor a world government with power exercised by the enlightened. In other words, a government with the moral courage to sacrifice the lives of tens of millions of humans for the sake of dodgy studies regarding bird eggshells. (Which have been discredited, but who cares?)
With the moral courage urged by Luke & Co., Ltd., you will become impoverished or even die. But it will be for a good cause.
You could lay down your life for a glacier. You could subject your wife and children to poverty for the sake of a delicate ecosystem in the Russian tundra.
Doesn’t that sound noble? Don’t we all want to join in?
Voluntary decrepitude has long been a favorite theme with kleptocratic neo-marxists.
Join the fun, and you, too, could be an instant winner, and receive cash and other prizes!
Both fascism and communism have been applied to past regimes that were authoritarian and totalitarian although it can be argued that there has never been a true fascist or communist govt, just one that talks the talk.
Facsism is possibly better economically as communism totally destroys economies however neither contain “checks and balances” and are prone to meglomania.
As an epithet fascist is meaningless.
Schiller your egg shell argument like you is thin on facts and morally bankrupt. Proof of any harm = 0.0
Name two people affected !
Schillso you’re so wound up in your eco-marxist yank clap-trap that you’re brain has turned to mush. You may find that the cold war is over mate. Give it a rest.
World government – what a joke. The UN couldn’t organise a chook raffle. Again Schiller give the same old same old a break hey? and put the brain into first gear.
Actually millions will lay down their lives for glaciers disappeared if naught is done. But you don’t really give a stuff about third world masses coz you’re a first world consumer (mate!).
Your whole egg shell story isn’t because you care. If you cared you’d be railing against the latest atrocity of your administration – Iraq. Your support of the issue indicates your true regard for human life.
So don’t give us this tripe about laying down lives for causes when you mongrels are killing real people with real guns for dodgy causes and precipitating mayhem every day. You make me sick.
Schiller the big sepo Shonk.
Graeme – you’re about as silly and rabid as I’ve ever come across.
“hard-wired for catastrophic COOLING” – no it’s not – you tell us why?
And what is the possible relevane to the next 500 years?
“hardwired” – that’s a new science term I assume.
I say you’re full of it and haven’t doen one ounce of research on this topic!
Luke,
I’ll forgive your denial of deaths from malaria since I’ve been given to understand that ozzies won’t use websites ending in .com, such as, for instance, http://www.google.com/
rog,
The term “fascism” is hurled about by many who haven’t taken the time to understand the term. It’s actually rather well understood.
Here are two links for you (apologies to .com deniers and malaria deniers):
“Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt,” Umberto Eco, http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html
And if you’re interested in the Nazi roots of eco-fascism, you should read:
“Fascist Ecology: The ‘Green Wing’ of the Nazi Party and its Historical Antecedents,” Peter Staudenmaier, http://www.spunk.org/texts/places/germany/sp001630/peter.html
And if you’re interested in discovering how Greens have a callous approach to humanity and are glad to sacrifice humans for base political aspirations, check out “Eco- Imperialism: Green Power. Black Death,” Paul Driessen, http://www.eco-imperialism.com/main.php
Luke & Co., Ltd. prefers to believe this information doesn’t exist, but you can read it nonetheless.
You guys have upset Luke, you know how sensitive he is to personal comments and can be easily pushed into a state of incandescant rage at the slightest of provocations.
Lets be greatful he isnt in any position of authority.
Hey Rog – fancy being shot up by friendly fire – wot a classic. Don’t be too polite to protest.
As I said Schiller can’t name anyone who’s died from the DDT shonk story – nobody !! QED it’s a crock.
As for reading anything – well Shillsma – that also seems to be your problemo with AGW – inability to read.
Nazis, Fascists, Marxists – gee Schizmo – didn’t notice any last time I was out. Lots of people down the shops though. I think you’re living in a self-made conspiracy. Cold wars over mate. Berlin wall is down.
When are you guys going to impeach Bush and Cheney for crimes against humanity ?
Anyway not long before the Dems sweep the floor and we can get back to some decency. I think a nice fat carbon tax is just what you need. And agricultural trade liberalisation to stop the bloated protectionism of your inefficient agriculture (with all that CO2 you’d think it would be doing better wouldn’t you).
P.S. You’ve mistaken your ozzies and your mossies. It’s the mossies not the Aussies that give transmit malaria.
Graeme Bird! CO2 fertilization increases crop growth rates but there is a larger negative than this positive. Leaves them increasingly susceptible to frost damage. Plants grow quicker, become more succulent and carry less lignified tissue. Ever seen what happens to lettuce when you freeze it. Back to school for you and the myriad of others who fail to grasp how this whole changing climate gig (whether man-made or natural) will influence our precariously placed food system. Not surprising since society is largely ignorant of agronomic considerations in food production. In the meantime the markets will extract more from your hip pocket and place it in mine … likely through increased commodity values and continued growth in agricultural land values. You haven’t seen hyperinflation in food yet, but it is coming.
Luke,
Since your main interest is determining who is properly adhering to the green creed, I forgive your litany of ad homs.
This makes your protestations irrelevant.
We actually have other things to discuss.
Rog
The truth is we are already eating more and more ‘tofu’ on a daily basis anyway. Texturized vegetable protein is sneaking into manufactured food products displacing animal proteins. This trend will continue and likely accelarate as animal protein prices continue to forge new record highs.
300 million acres is a lot of land but there are capacity constraints surplus to land supplies that are restricting arable acres today and will continue to restrict agricultural output capacity and development of any new land tomorrow.
Number one is fertilizer supplies and pricing and that is why fertilizer equities around the world have doubled in value in the last 6 months. RWD.AX (potash) and IPL.AX (ammonia and DAP) are two Aussie stocks doing very nicely thankyou very much. Potash Corp in Toronto, Hang Feng, Agrium all going ballistic as fertilizer prices forge record highs.
Number two is aquifer depletion in China, India and the Midwest of the US. 60% of the worlds staple food crops are irrigated. Theres a lot of evidence to suggest this water resource is almost depleted and in countries such as India and China power infrastructure in rural areas is deteriorated to the point where irrigators face regular blackouts and are unable to water crops in a timely fashion.
Read ‘Outgrowing the Earth’ by Lester Brown. As an ex-farmer himself he agronomically puts to bed the rural myths of the green revolution being able to continue.
But Aaron this blog has previously told me that agricultural technology and GM will provide endless supplies of quality cheap food – how can this be 🙂 Are you suggesting that there may be issues after all?
This blog merely tells you that the adoption of GM technology is one more way in which production can achieve increased input optimisation (ie better weed control, increased nutrient and water use efficiencies, increased pest and disease resistance etc etc) and this will serve to generally increase output. Will it allow us to avoid the unfolding calamity? I doubt it, but it will delay it and give us time to start looking at sustainable population carry on this planet and more sustainable agricultural practises. But sustainable ag systems generally yield far less (half to a third) than conventional systems so there lies another complexity …
Aaron,
The complexity you suspect may be far more simple than many would prefer to make it. The fact is, the most sustainable ag system is the one with the most output for the least input; the greatest return from the fewest resources necessary.
It’s quite simple, really.
There are some who prefer a return to wasteful, low-production agriculture, but five millennia of agricultural progress has consistently aimed at getting the most food from the fewest acres.
Schiller… You are right on the money. Ultimately farmers must aspire to foster a system where the only inputs required for production are biologically supplied or fixed. Ie rainfed, perennial organic infrastructure, nitrogen supplying legume based, and adapted to the chemical properties characteristic of indigenous host soils. Inevitably this means growing what used to be native if indeed there was a staple producer within the indigenous mix. In Australia we are lucky, we have the perennial leguminous oilseed the sandalwood nut from our very own Santalum spicatum. Adapted to a wide range of pHs and poor phosphorus status soils.
These systems can take 4-5 years to bring into production so there is a food production void during those years. This in itself is a problem for change.
I suspect now after 5 millenia of ag ‘progress’ low input trending will increase on marginal soils as conventional input costs continue to hyperinflate. And lets face it the more weather risk that we see and the more expensive it becomes to grow crops, the greater percentage of land out there becomes thought of as marginal. The cost of failure has never been so high. In WA this year the area under sandalwood cultivation in going to increase by 50% to around 9500ha. I anticipate this rise to continue to grow significantly in the coming years.
In case Schiller wonders why I avoid the endless .com links here, it’s simply the best way of avoiding loads of unauthorised crap.
For starters My google has the “au” and most important the “pages from Australia” alternative search.
http://www.google.com.au/
Locals should try it up front every time
Cheers
Luke thinks “I was shot up by friendly fire”
Thats the ridiculous thing about the internet, how some people think that it is real.
Also amusing how one such character threatened to sue for damages over comments made on the internet.
As if..
Rog can’t bring himself to say it. Hehehehehehe.. ..
He’d rather side with a goober.
“Graeme Bird! CO2 fertilization increases crop growth rates but there is a larger negative than this positive. Leaves them increasingly susceptible to frost damage. Plants grow quicker, become more succulent and carry less lignified tissue. Ever seen what happens to lettuce when you freeze it. Back to school for you and the myriad of others who fail to grasp how this whole changing climate gig (whether man-made or natural) will influence our precariously placed food system. ”
Aaron. All of the above is total leftist nonsense. Just total lies.
CO2 INCREASES resistance to frost damage. None of the effects that you claim are true. Under any given situation CO2 makes the plant life healthier.
All more leftist lies.
And since there is always a spectrum in humanity from the starving or near-starving poor all the way up to the filthy-rich… when you impose costs and deny the globe its fairly gained industrial-CO2… Then clearly if there is such a thing as straight-logic, you are murdering people.
For you people thats a strange idea I know.
But get used to it. Its the truth. And its important. Its a life-and-death-matter.
When commercial growers use elevated levels of CO2 to enhance their profits their gross costs go up along with their gross revenues.
They must spend many thousands of dollars up front in the purchase of the capital goods involved and then there are ongoing costs in terms of the maintenance of that equipment, the fossil fuels they must burn to create the extra CO2, and the extra electricity involved in order to keep the CO2 levels high.
Clearly not all the costs are fixed. Many of these costs are variable and rise and fall in accordance with the higher or lower CO2 levels they wish to maintain.
YET THE USE OF THIS TECHNOLOGY STILL ENHANCES THEIR PROFITS!!!
Therefore we can be very confident that the optimal COMMERCIAL CO2-level is much lower then the optimum level from the point of view of maximising the plant yield and/or the total value of the crop…. The total revenues from that crop.
The CO2-level that is best for the profits is always a lot less then the CO2-level that is best for the plants.
These systems for enhancing CO2 levels are available commercially and we can see the evidence of this on the net. So without even a single experiment involving enhanced CO2 levels we would know for a fact that the jury is NOT OUT on the effect of CO2 on plant health and plant yields.
Enhanced CO2 increases general plant well-being, resistance to various plant-maladies, powerfully enhanced plant growth. And in this country where the A-bloody-BC is always harping on about alleged water-shortages…. it increases the WATER-productivity of plants. Meaning those plants will grow more with less water and are more drought-resistant.
But don’t take my word for it.
Lets look at what the experts say. And for the benefit of the leftist morons amongst you I’ve found an expert who is not sponsored by Exxon, Mobil, Gulf or Shell. And not influenced by the Broken-Hill-Proprietary either.
http://graemebird.wordpress.com/2006/08/26/nature-and-plant-growing-utopia/
Every constituent part of the leftist energy-deprivation-crusade is totally transparent idiocy.
Don’t ask me how this came about because such queries are not a valid argument to the contrary.
Just get used to the fact of it.
Wow – a new line of science debate “it’s all lies”. And he’s your new mate Rog !
say what Luke?
You havent moved on from the pubescent tittering stage, arrested development.
Out of interest Graeme what do you do for a crust? Oh and another question … why has the North American winter wheat crop just been toasted by frost? Apparently the crops were CO2 fertilized and global warmed to be two weeks more mature than they normally would have been … Plants are more succulent and develop ahead of normal. Result – more susceptible to economic vandalism via you guessed it – frost! Trust me, I am a wheat farmer … still confused? 😉
And just where did you get your stuff from Graeme???
Rubbish bins!
Folks; I just deviated with a full web google for a change.
Graeme, Bird and “rubbish” and its there. Guess what? It actually peters out so quickly given all his effort
Away from genuine science it dies like Greenie Watch
None of that shit is important.
Whats important is that you energy-deprivation-crusaders get with the real world and with plain reason.
There are many contentions where there is a bit of right and a bit of wrong on both sides.
This is not one of them.
The way that the human species works together in the many millions is not always exactly the same as the way they work in groups.
If it was, then we would have to believe in grave and malign conspiracies as a constant and ongoing feature.
Now I don’t believe in conspiracy-theory to that degree. But the facts here speak for themselves. And in this case the alarmist-energy-deniers and trace-gas-hysterics are both wrong and idiotic in every micronised part of their case.
And the feeling or idea that the layman has that this cannot possibly be true has no place in this debate.
“…..in groups….” What I really meant was “….as individuals…..”
Gavin. Rewrite what you said so that its a little bit more comprehensible. I’m interested in what you are trying to say.
No really I’m interested.
Its just going to be more lies and/or nonsense. But still I’m very interested.
“…why has the North American winter wheat crop just been toasted by frost? …”
You idiot. Its because your ideas are foolish and stupid that the crop has been hurt in this way.
Its because the energy-deprivation-crusades nonsense of (substantial) CO2-based warming is a stupid lie. And the fact is the planet is now cooling.
Because we are now cooling we had a very cold winter in the North. And the winter will probably be just as cold.
In the South we face a very cold winter as well this year.
So whereas the CO2 rises only very slowly, and therefore the delta-CO2-induced plant-resistance to frost only improves a tiny bit each year….. Still this was way overmatched this year by global cooling.
It is because you are wrong that the plants were damaged.
Goofy Bird says “Its because your ideas are foolish and stupid that the crop has been hurt in this way.” Wow telepathic crop damage.
Wow – big powerful magic – Aaron powerful witchdoctor – heapum big medicine man “WOW”
Aaron pointed the bone at the crop and it died. ROTFL.
Big fella WA belonga SandalWood make crop go stalk up.
Rog – stop it – my sides are aching from laughing so much. Come admit these guys are your mates. They’re your cousins aren’t they. From Tassie. Heehehehehehe.. .. I can’t see the keyboard for the tears.
This is classic stuff. Hilarious.
Luke,
It’s time you put your money down on the claims you make about global warming. And it’s just as easy as buying carbon credits:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/ODDS_GLOBAL_WARMING_BETS?SITE=NYROR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Apr 13, 8:38 PM EDT
Wanna Bet on Global Warming? You Can
NORFOLK, Va. (AP) — Think global warming will raise the oceans enough to submerge Cape Hatteras? Want to bet on it?
An online gambling service has started taking bets on global warming, including whether it can submerge some of the East Coast’s top vacation spots.
The odds that Virginia’s Cape Henry will be under water by 2015 – 200-to-1 at BetUs.com. Its odds for Cape Hatteras flooding by the same date – 300-to-1.
Most gamblers on the site have put down money that Manhattan will be submerged before New Year’s Eve 2011.
“Don’t ask me why,” Richards said.
Well it looks like every thread is just going to be that idiot Luke, whose been proved wrong, talking nonsense and refusing to come up with any evidence.
Everything I said was totally correct and Lukes a leftist lying fraud and an idiot. And has no evidence at all. And a what a wanker to just keep linking to a pay per view site and lie and say he’s produced the evidence.
We need to change how blogs work. Evasive and lying behaviour ought to be the ultimate blog-crime.
Got that evidence yet Luke?
Graeme,
Luke has his mission, who knows what it is. To be sure, they tend towards a world government built on an hegemony between greens and capitalists with wind power, etc., coupled with a decomposition of any ability to defend against radicals with explosive devices.
He (or she) denies that people die from malaria, or perhaps only denies that they die in quantities great enough to be worthy of attention.
“Luke” will deny anything that cuts against against a political green mandate to rule the planet via green ‘enlightened’ autocracy.
Everyone here knows that “Luke” cherry-picks citations (some even from .coms!) which obscure plainly evident, non-human-induced, macro changes in climate.
*Checks calender to see if this is April 1st*
No, April 15th. Hey, Luke, can be head of the KGB when we take over?
Schiller likes Graeme – he’s finally found a fellow conspiracist to deal with. It’s sooo pure and excellent that I reckon we could so something with it.
Schillsbury – do you have a manager at the moment – coz I think SJT and I could use you in our latest idea for a zany sit-com with lovable right wing nutters as the stars. We could feature zany skits as our hapless band of right wing goof-balls battle lefties, greenies and the rest of the world on a daily basis.
We can get a good tax dodge (errr break) from Woody who’ll do the books.
BTW still no names of anyone who’s died from the supposed “DDT restriction” yet. I heard that one, Booboo Impartu was affected but when I rang Uganda he answered the phone. He said since he’s been using DDT though he hasn’t be able to get it up and that he’s contracted emphysema from the cigarettes also supplied by the DDT merchant. http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=14&click_id=125&art_id=vn20070412014231916C324256
He said “Sepos go home” and “stop dumping your evil shit in the 3rd world”.
I know the US has the 3rd world by the balls, but this is ridiculous. ROFTL .. ..
Luke,
Okay, I get your joke now! I am laughing very much at your witticism! You have turned a favorite quote of Marxists and in neo-Marxist style, have turned it on its head, without abandoning the party line.
“A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.” – Joseph Stalin.
You have crafted your argument cleverly. I, in my cozy home in a developed country without malaria, cannot name someone who died from malaria. That makes the millions dead from malaria not merely a statistic, but a deniable statistic as well.
I would mention the obvious parallel to your callous approach to the loss of human life, but I won’t.
I wouldn’t share a boat with you, and I’m ashamed to share a planet with you.
Schiller – the ol’ “name two” is a classic. Try it on your lefty buddies on the issue of your choice. If you’re awake to the joke you’re supposed to immediately make up two names (funny ones). It’s not a marxist joke – it’s a high school kids joke when they first learn cynicism.
It’s also very good medicine for those who adopt causes from afar without real empathy. I’m not denying that people die from malaria at all – far from it – it’s bad shit – that’s simply your surmise – I simply think you’re more concerned about fitting greenies up with something than the real issue.
i.e. Crocodile tears mate !
or as we say down here “not fair dinkum”
– which shouldn’t be confused with ” a few roos loose in the top paddock” e.g. Looney Bird
Anyway don’t preach to me about malaria – my father had it. Any of your family have malaria Scillsbo?
In any case I don’t see that you have any real solid data or anyone being deprived of DDT for medical entomological purposes.
And mate if you were in my boat you’d be rowing or I’d have to kick your arse overboard.
P.S. If you think I’m a marxist you’re a wanker.
P.P.S. Schillsy you have to realise mate that Aussies are pulling your Yankee leg half the time to see how much b/s we can spin you. You have to learn the subtle art of taking the piss. Trouble for you is which half. – dig it?
Lets see some evidence Luke. If you want hundreds of millions of people to die for an energy-deprivation crusade lets at least see the evidence for your contentions.
“Luke has his mission, who knows what it is. To be sure, they tend towards a world government built on an hegemony between greens and capitalists with wind power, etc., coupled with a decomposition of any ability to defend against radicals with explosive devices.”
Seems that way don’t it.
Its like he read Gramsci and then just never stopped jacking off.
But its not just Luke. I tried to shame some evidence out of James Annan. Out of the guys at realclimate. But you couldn’t get it out of them with a blow-torch.
Though in Lukes case it would be worth trying the blow-torch I suppose.
Luke,
I don’t think millions dead is funny, and I don’t find your explanation of your witticisms about millions of dead remotely clever, and I view your cultural explanations about witticisms about millions dead as culturally slanderous.
Characterizing your remarks about death on such a scale, across decades, as “a high school kids joke” does not diminish their monstrosity.
You see how I was right to link the DDT-Holocaust-Denial with the energy-deprivation-crusade. A lot of it is the same people. The Quisling and Lambert just for example.
Those many tens of millions of people that White-Leftist-Taxeaters murdered with their bureaucratisation of DDT-use.
Well that would pale into insignificance in terms of how many they will kill with their continuous obstruction in energy-production.
And so these 50million plus deaths that these white-tax-eaters caused… We must consider this as merely a warning shot.
It must be remembered that efforts to hamper nuclear-electricity production go back many years. The US hasn’t put up another nuclear-power-plant since the 1970’s.
These restrictions were for no reason at all since nuclear is the cleanest, cheapest and safest source of energy there is.
The suffering is already with us. More expensive energy means less capital accumulation. Which means lower incomes.
And in some places lower incomes mean greatly shortened lives.
Schiller you’re a humourless bastard who really can’t be taken seriously. That’s why love taking the piss out of you sepos.
You have ZERO evidence of any effect of DDT deprivation. Just another yankee doodle right wing wanker. It’s just a big put-on for show.
No thats just you lying Luke. The story of the banning (or if you want to be pedantic BUREAUCRATISATION) of DDT is well-known.
You cannot hide the fact that hundreds of millions of people have malaria. Or that for many years malaria-sufferers were dying in their millions every year. Or that DDT spraying can reduce drastically the number of infections.
Luke saying that there is no evidence.
Well thats a fascist holocaust-denier for you. Thinks he can hide millions of dead black children in the cellar.
I would argue that the socialist mass-murdering never stopped. It didn’t stop with the death of Stalin and Mao. And now they are looking around for more subtle ways of doing this and energy-deprivation is the best thing going by a long shot.
But none of us ought get bogged down with Luke, the energy-deprivation-crusader, throwing it all back on us.
This is a bad habit many non-alarmists have. Of getting bogged down with these clowns when they are yet to come up with any evidence for their attempted murder, thieving, and cost-imposition.
We must not let Luke do that at all. Its a luxury we cannot afford. Since to get distracted into these side-arguments actually continues the hoax and makes it look like Luke has some primary evidence.
So Luke.
No distractions now.
We aren’t going to get bogged down in your crowds mass-murder of black kids.
Do you have any evidence for the likelihood of global catastrophic warming?
Or for the idea that a little human-induced warming is a bad thing in a brutal and pulverising ice age?
Utter crivel you vile little mongrel. Nobody has been derived on anythinjg. It’s time lying bastards like yoiu were taken off the street. As son as Rudd gets in off to boob for you sunshine. Sorry the looney bin.
http://info-pollution.com/ddtban.htm
Get a grip denialists and shonks.
Yeah I’ve seen that link before. Total DDT-Holocaust denial.
Just pedantically claimng the delaying tactics of the rich-white-leftist-taxeaters with DDT was not a TOTAL BAN.
But you don’t need a total ban to kill millions of black people. All you need is to set it up that the DDT doesn’t get released until black kids are dropping dead everywhere and getting bitten on their way to school.
A shockingly disgraceful link by another lunatic like yourself whose almost definitely an energy-deprivation-genocidalist as well.
But we weren’t interested in you creating a distraction Luke.
We wanted some evidence for the likelihood of catastrophic warming.
And while you argue about AGW etc etc, crops wither under ‘unusual’ weekend heatwave throughout the winter crop dominant regions of Europe. Wheat futures are loaded to project to record highs. Ah! Markets! They never lie. 27 degrees C in Switzerland today. When you hear about unusual weather, there is generally an adverse crop affect in that region …
———————————————-
Weekend could bring heat record
By Lynda Hanlon
BBC Weather Centre
This may seem like a well-worn phrase, but this Saturday could see yet another temperature record broken if, as predicted for some parts, the thermometer hits 25C (77F).
The warm Easter bank holiday saw crowds head to the UK’s beaches
This would represent the highest temperature recorded on 14 April in the UK and would be a whopping 12C higher than we should expect at this time of year.
You could be forgiven for thinking we have skipped forward to June.
So what’s going on?
It is hardly news that we had an exceptionally mild winter. This was down to the air masses arriving on our shores from the sub-tropics.
This moisture-laden warm air kept the temperatures and the reservoir levels up.
We didn’t get any real extended periods of cold weather, so, putting it simply, the ground never got a chance to cool off.
Blue skies
Winter in the UK was 1.85C warmer on average than we would expect. This may not seem like a lot, but it is having a big impact. Eastern Europe was warmer by 3C to 5C.
The long-term forecast suggests… a 12% chance of a repeat of the summers of 2003 and 2006
2007 Hosepipe bans ‘unlikely’
So what’s the summer shaping up like?
Long-term forecasting is always inherently difficult, but the long, hot, blue-sky summers of your childhood may not seem so distant.
The last average summer was in 2000 and very few of us can forget the searing summers of 2003 and 2006.
The Met Office identifies that average air temperatures in the UK have increased by 1C, which is twice the global average.
North Sea air
As a consequence, all our seasons are warmer than the 1971-2000 average, increasing the chances of an exceptionally warm summer similar to those of 2003 and 2006.
The long-term forecast suggests there is a 70% chance of temperatures being higher than average and a 12% chance of a repeat of the summers of 2003 and 2006.
Back to the potential for record-breaking temperatures this weekend – a word of warning.
If you’re on the east coast, north of The Wash, you might be left wondering what all the fuss is about.
If the air over the North Sea is pulled on land it will feel cold.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6548313.stm
China and India in trouble too …
Crops threatened by warm weather, drought
By Zhao Huanxin (China Daily)
Updated: 2007-04-04 07:06
A Chinese farmer carrying water walks near the drying field in Yuping District, Southwest China’s Chongqing Municipality March 26, 2007. [Xinhua]
Warm winter weather combined with the prolonged drought that has gripped a wide swathe of China have put crops at risk across the country, officials have said.
Unseasonably high temperatures last winter caused wheat, the country’s second most important crop after rice, to grow extraordinarily fast in many areas, making it more vulnerable to drastic weather changes, the Ministry of Agriculture said yesterday.
The average temperature during the past winter was minus 2.4 C, nearly 2 C higher than normal, official statistics showed.
Related readings:
57 poisoned in E. China restaurant
In China, eating out is now definitely in
Children’s ads show lots of junk food
Fresh food linked to food poisoning
Safe food for all should be the recipe
The higher temperature has caused 3.1 million hectares of wheat, or 15 percent of the total area planted with winter wheat, to grow abnormally lushly, ministry official Wang Xiaobing said.
In addition the warm weather allowed insects and bacteria survive the winter, meaning farms could expect to see more pests and diseases this year, he said.
For example, at least 840,000 hectares of wheat, mostly in Central China, are suffering from yellow rust disease, a kind of fungus that affects plants, according to ministry statistics.
“We must bring the infection under control or it could spread to other key grain producers, like Hebei Province in North China, Henan Province in Central China and Shandong in East China,” Wang told China Daily.
Wang said the ministry has urged local agricultural departments to prepare contingency plans for possible cold snaps and strong winds that may affect wheat seedlings.
Meanwhile, the drought that has stretched through the winter has adversely affected an even larger area.
At least 13.5 million hectares of farmland in China had been hit by drought by the end of last month, according to the latest statistics from the State Flood Control and Drought Relief Headquarters.
The situation has aggravated water shortages in North China and could affect spring ploughing, a Xinhua report quoted Tian Yitang, deputy chief of the headquarters’ general office, as saying.
For example, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region has 1.01 billion cubic meters of water reserves, less than half the total in normal years, the Beijing-based headquarters said in a release.
The Central Meteorological Station has forecast strong rainfalls in South China, and relatively more precipitation for the eastern part of Sichuan Province and Chongqing Municipality in Southwest China in the coming 10 days, which will help relieve the drought in those areas.
Ministry of Agriculture official Wang said he believed the current drought would not make a significant dent in the country’s grain production.
Wheat accounts for nearly 90 percent of the crops harvested in summer. Summer grain, mainly wheat and early rice, which is sown in spring, contributes to a quarter of China’s total grain production, according to Wang.
The ministry has asked local areas to do what they can to relieve drought.
By the end of March, Shanxi Province in North China had dug at least 25,000 wells to water 213,300 hectares of farmland, according to the State Flood Control and Drought Relief Headquarters.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-04/04/content_842930.htm
“Winter in the UK was 1.85C warmer on average than we would expect. This may not seem like a lot…….”
Its not a lot. And its a good thing. Don’t begrudge the poor freezing Brits a little bit of warmth.
“The long-term forecast suggests… a 12% chance of a repeat of the summers of 2003 and 2006…”
On what basis?
If thats true I guess we could just throw a party. And we want to make sure the energy is cheap so that airconditioning is not too expensive.
But all this is silly talk. Since the sun has been brighter then its been in 1150 years.
So that therefore the only way for the temperature to go is DOWN.
Nothing could be clearer than that.
Crops are your best guage of climate change or more convincingly futures markets … Doomsaying it seems is a very profitable frame of mind.
Graeme a 1 degree rise in temperature translates to a 10% reduction in global grain production. As a human (albeit a different one) this should worry you … You really should read the whole article before you go jawboning … 😉
“Unseasonably high temperatures last winter caused wheat, the country’s second most important crop after rice, to grow extraordinarily fast in many areas, making it more vulnerable to drastic weather changes, the Ministry of Agriculture said yesterday.”
“The higher temperature has caused 3.1 million hectares of wheat, or 15 percent of the total area planted with winter wheat, to grow abnormally lushly, ministry official Wang Xiaobing said.”
Sounds like a ghastly bad break for the Chinese……..NOT!!!
What is wrong with wheat growing too lushly?
Thats just what you’d expect from more CO2.
Does nothing ever please you people?
The warmth won’t last. But the extra CO2 will help us cope with the colder weather.
“Graeme a 1 degree rise in temperature translates to a 10% reduction in global grain production. ”
No it doesn’t thats bullshit. It translates into an increase for grain output. And your own information backs me up on that. Whats wrong with you man?
Have you lost your mind or something?
Secondly we weren’t talking about an increase in temperature. We are talking about CO2 emissions. CO2 emissions DON’T increase temperature. Not in any way large enough for us to detect.
IT WOULD BE GOOD IF CO2 EMISSIONS INCREASED TEMPERATURE BUT UNFORTUNATELY THEY DON’T.
So sadly we don’t get that extra warmth. Or not much of it. But we do get the extra grain production.
Extra warmth will help grain production as your cut and paste showed. But extra CO2 will help grain production a great deal more.
Time to click your heels three times and get back to the real world.
“Graeme a 1 degree rise in temperature translates to a 10% reduction in global grain production. As a human (albeit a different one) this should worry you … You really should read the whole article before you go jawboning … ;)”
Clearly Aaron you are a complete idiot.
Now apologise.
Say: “Graeme. I am very sorry for being an idiot and for my stupidity and lack of reading comprehension”
Lets see the apology Aaron.
Thanks Aaron for some facts – lost on little mate.
Hey Graeme – we give in – you win. So how about you do a guest post for Jen that explains it all for us. Coz we just don’t understand. No emotion – just the facts and some solid references.
Given you are a skim reader Grame, I’ve placed this excerpt here for you to ponder on …
“After two weeks with temperatures spiking well into the 80s, many plants produced delicate flowers, foliage or fruit. These turned brown, drooped and died when the thermometer dipped to the mid-20s Saturday night.”
———————————————
Below-freezing temperatures kill crops
By Paul Woolverton
Staff writer
ADVERTISEMENT
Winter reached into April over Easter weekend to kill much of this season’s peaches and play havoc with home gardeners’ psyches.
After two weeks with temperatures spiking well into the 80s, many plants produced delicate flowers, foliage or fruit. These turned brown, drooped and died when the thermometer dipped to the mid-20s Saturday night.
“It could not have happened at a worse time,” said Moore County Cooperative Extension Agent Taylor Williams.
Survival of the hardy
Perennials and other hardy plants will rebound, agriculture and gardening experts said. Unprotected fruits and vegetables and heat-loving annual plants likely are lost causes.
“I thought I was going to have the best crop I ever had,” said Moore County peach farmer John Ferguson. Now, all his young peaches are dead, he said. Fires he set near his peach trees to try to keep them warm did no good.
Ferguson also lost his crop of plums, persimmons and most of his apples.
Officials are still adding up the costs across North Carolina. They think most of the peaches from the Sandhills area were lost. The loss will drive up the cost of peaches at farmers markets and groceries this summer, said Jeff Chandler, superintendent of the state Agriculture Department’s Sandhills Research Station. Growers will have to decide whether their trees have enough peaches left to justify the cost of pesticides and picking them, he said.
Wheat farmers may have lost some of their crop, too. Wheat is planted in late fall and the plant grows through the winter. But the part that produces the grain, called the grain head, forms in the spring and can’t tolerate cold weather, said Cooperative Extension Agent Colby Lambert in Cumberland County.
Berries
Blueberry and strawberry farmers in Bladen County used covers and irrigation to try to keep the plants and young fruit warm.
The covers and water can be effective, said Extension Agent Howard Wallace.
The covers trap heat, he said. The irrigation water forms a coating of ice. The freezing water doesn’t chill the plants. When water turns to ice, it expels a small bit of heat. That heat helps keep the plant above the freezing point.
Strawberry growers Jimmy and Mitzi Powers in Robeson County have a special alarm clock to tell them when they need to irrigate their fields against the cold. It’s connected to a thermometer and set for 34degrees.
“We didn’t get a lot of sleep the last couple of nights,” Jimmy Powers said. Once the Powers turned on their irrigation equipment, they had to get up every two hours to double check that nothing broke down. They think they saved the strawberries.
Now they are checking for losses on other produce, such as watermelon, squash, cucumbers and potatoes.
“It’s going to take, I reckon, a few days to really assess everything,” Jimmy Powers said.
Corn, recently planted, was hurt but should come back, he said.
Home gardeners
Home gardeners started calling plant and garden centers Monday morning with tales of withered leaves, wilted stems and blossoms that dangled like deflated balloons.
“The first four phone calls this morning were Japanese maples,” said Tim Owen of Owen Garden Center & Nursery in Fayetteville.
Perennial plants may look bad, he said, but with water and other care they should recover.
“I saw some lawns that were burned, but they’ll come out of it,” Owen said. “The damage to most of it, I believe, is all 100-percent cosmetic.”
But the frost killed annual plants, which need warm weather, said owner Susan Ernst of Eastover Garden Center.
Even if the plants were covered to trap heat around them, they likely were damaged, she said. The damaged areas should be trimmed to see whether the healthy remnants grow. “If they don’t come back out in a couple weeks…I would say replant,” she said.
Staff writer Paul Woolverton can be reached at woolvertonp@fayobserver.com or 486-3512.
http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=259401
“Below-freezing temperatures kill crops…”
“Winter reached into April over Easter weekend to kill much of this season’s peaches and play havoc with home gardeners’ psyches.”
Global Warming? What exactly is your point?
We can expect a lot more of this trouble as the planet turns colder.
But the higher the CO2 level and the less unnecessary costs that are imposed on us, the more easily we will cope with this sort of thing.
Whereas the energy-deprivation crusade want cost imposition and less CO2 since they are lunatics. I want more CO2 and less cost imposition, so those farmers can deal with whatever is thrown at them.
More and cheaper energy means an easier ability to cope. It means greater capital accumulation which enables people to deal with anything that comes by.
Graeme
Greater capital accumulation is not the answer to everything, not by a long way. It is an economic answer, but the economy is also subject to externalities.
No it IS the answer to everything. Its why a country is rich and why another country is poor. The economy is subject to externalities. And the most important one here is CO2 levels. The higher the better.
CO2 is a POSITIVE externality. This is what we know. This is where all the evidence points. There is not an element of doubt there at all.
I WANT EVIDENCE OF THE NEXT ICE AGE you CO2 smothering drought causing creep. GIVE IT TO ME !! NOW !!!!!!!!!!!
People like you caused this latest drought.
CO2 is a NEGATIVE INTERNALITY. You stupid righist Nazi idiot.
Luke,
If your fulminations are to be believed, CO2 emissions caused by humans will save us from the next ice age.
They won’t, of course, since everyone knows that 99.6 percent of the CO2 increase is attributable to natural sources, which increase CO2 production when the Earth warms.
Luke, you have to agree that an ice age would be a bad thing for humans and ecosystems, and perhaps for Gaia’s puckered and dimpled fundament.
What exactly is wrong with taking measures to notionally delay an ice age by emitting CO2?
As an aside, Luke, calling someone a “smothering drought causing creep” and saying they “caused this latest drought” is, well, rather extreme when you want to prove eentsie-weentsie contributions to global warming are massive.
Makes you look desperate.
And screaming, “GIVE IT TO ME !! NOW !!!!!!!!!!!” sounds like something you may not want to hear through the walls of your apartment. Or maybe you like that.
Dude, you can chill all on your own. Just chill.
You are a CO2 smothering drought causer too Schillso. Fancy wishing an ice age on us Aussies. I want evidence Schiller – GIVE IT TO ME NOW. You people are peddling drugs in Africa and everything. You’re all righist idiots.
Dead things emit CO2 Schiller – that’s where you’re coming from. Don’t deny it.
And we’ve had ice ages before and we’re all still here. But when the world was poisoned by greenhouse gases everything died. Smothered by evil CO2 Schiller. You lot are trying to poison us and Beck’s measurements show more CO2 in Australia – so you trying to finish us off so you can make us the 51st state. We’re on your gamne mate. And Coca Cola – a typical right wing product has CO2 in it – you’re making us snort it – poison CO2 Schiller.
Someone else is using Luke’s computer. As extreme as it is, Luke has never been this totally whacked.
“You are a CO2 smothering drought causer”
“wishing an ice age on us Aussies”
“peddling drugs in Africa and everything”
“Dead things emit CO2”
“when the world was poisoned by greenhouse gases everything died. Smothered by evil CO2”
“you trying to finish us off so you can make us the 51st state”
“Coca Cola – a typical right wing product has CO2 in it – you’re making us snort it”
This isn’t normal.
Ha ha ha – yes it is I Graeme Bird – I’ve disposed of Luke and am using his terminal – he’s been gone for months and you all fell for it. This is the new standard of debate.
Repeat after me “I WANT EVIDENCE – You are a LEFTIST/RIGHIST IDIOT (delete inappropriate term. AND I’m coming round to your house to smack you out and steal your thongs for disagreeing with me. GIMME EVIDENCE”.
Thats just totally ridiculous Luke.
Everyone knows that leftwingers can’t fight for shit.
We had ice ages before. More then twenty-times in the last 3 million years.
And we were slaughtered mercilessly like an endless Western Front every time.
It was such a horrible repititious slaughter with just enough time in the interglacials for the population to build back up near to saturation for huntergatherers before the white wall of death came back.
The slaughter was so horrible and it happened so many times that we wound up evolving to who we are today. This pumping-holocaust squeezed the evolution out of us.
So Luke your logic doesn’t hold even a little bit.
If we have another ice age, and with energy-deprivation-fascists imposing costs on us… billions will die.
Even another “little” ice age with the decades-long efforts that leftists have already put in to inhibiting our ability to produce energy, could likely prematurely end the life of billions.
So the sort of lies and fraud that Luke and his coterie are getting up to are no joke. These lies are serious lies with serious consequences and its not just some sort of absent-minded mistake on their part.
Its warm now. And we haven’t yet run too short on oil. But we are so not ready for a massive turn-down in the weather and a massive reduction in the supply of oil.
So whats going on with Luke?
This was said by Alexander King. Co-Founder of the Club Of Rome.
“In Guyana, within almost two years, it had almost eliminated malaria, but at the same time the birth rate had doubled. So my chief quarrel with DDT in hindsight is that it greatly added to the population problem.”
Its this sort of thinking that underlies the Global Warming Hoax also. And its basically the same people. The DDT-Holocaust Deniers/Enablers and the Energy-Deprivation-Crusaders are largely the same crowd.
His argument has never been so totally and utterly smashed before.
So he’ll pull any bullshit tantrum as a distraction.
Just stop the distractions Luke.
Lets see some evidence.
No need to throw a ridiculous idiotic tantrum.
Lets see some evidence instead.
How could a blind man “see” if the world was heating or cooling?
We could ask him to find the sea in both cases if he lived long enough while considering where it should be.
Graeme can surely tell us if the sea right now is rising or falling and show us his evidence immediately
You’ve already made a total idiot of yourself on the other thread gavin.
Your a waste of blogspace.
Now lets see some evidence. We didn’t want you to be a total idiot and be mucking about with the normal usage of the language.
What we wanted instead you marxist tool. Is some evidence.
But tell me this:
You are a science PHD aren’t you? Because only an alarmist science-PHD would say things quite as stupid as you.
For the love of Allah and all his big-titty virgins you GAVIN are one dumb idiot.
Third parties this is what you can expect next.
The leftist Gramscian energy-deprivation-crusaders… Since they have so quickly and so dramatically been proven to be wrong and fraudulent…..
… Will now try and get me thrown off by sheer swarming stupidity.
Now I’m used to this. But I didn’t think that they’d be THAT stupid.
Gavin,
You ask a good question: “How could a blind man “see” if the world was heating or cooling?”
Well, we’re all blind. The trends in global temperature that we perceive are lower than the signal-to-noise ratio, and nobody can agree on actually how to “take the world’s temperature.”
And nobody knows what the world’s ideal temperature should be, but the neo-eco-Marxists all seem to agree that colder by any means is better, by any means.
The tide is turning against you and your crocks. Junk science and dreams of economic control are groaning their way to the historical dust-bin.
You all will likely make a long good-bye, replete with complaints of misery and prognostications of catastrophe, but you will perpetually be saddled with the reputation of ill-wishers on humanity and peddlers of falsehood.
Be smart if you can, and say good-bye fast.
Just remember Shillzoid that if you can’t tell the world is warming by an untrusted network of thermometers you also can’t tell if it’s cooling.
Bit too subtle for you Schiller ??
Don’t be a CO2 smothering death merchant Schiller. All you neo-fascist totalitarians are the same. A causer of droughts and disease. You people have already killed more people through global warming than Hitler you know. You guys produce gigatons of CO2 – do you know how big a gigaton is Schillsy – it’s weally vwery big !!
Thurkettle: ‘You ask a good question’: “How could a blind man “see” if the world was heating or cooling?”
Guess what? I might be the only man on the blog who can actually claim to be a veteran in dealing in s/n ratios across many fields of measurement, things like the practice of CDMA for example in my latter years. Go on do you google first, and then we may get some depth in these arguments.
For bird’s sake: Any smart arse gets a feel for it all after a few decades in the job without a PhD. We even get to see a few things on a “needs to know basis” along the way.
Folks: these guys don’t annoy because they aren’t real.
Alright whats going on with blaming CO2 for drought????
Blaming CO2 for warming at least had a bit of an understandeable hypothesis for it.
So it wasn’t self-evidently stupid. As it turned out it was WRONG. But in the first instance the idea that extra CO2 might warm things up by more then an imperceptible amount on the decadal level wasn’t crazy and it had an easy to understand story about it.
BUT WHAT IS THIS CO2 EQUALS DROUGHT BUSINESS.
Nothing could be more stupid then this. In the case of human-induced-CO2 equals warming you don’t have the data.
But in the case of CO2 equals DROUGHT you not only don’t have the data. You don’t even have a plausible story, or a plausible inductive inference in the first place.
So its a bit of a mystery where this is coming from. Whose calling this tune? All of you people who have so blithely made this ridiculous connection must have gotten it from somewhere.
CO2 CAUSES DROUGHT.
A ridiculous idea. But there you are all parroting it as if it was known proven stuff instead of a very silly idea. Or something, that if true, would be totally surprising and would mean we all had to rewrite our understanding of physics in its entirety.
Now how do you guys (in your left-wing world) reckon that CO2 causes droughts?
Do you suspect that the little CO2 molecule gets IN BETWEEN H2O molecules and acts as a catalyst forcing them apart????
Explain this latest idiocy please.
Or did you zombies just get it all from the CSIRO?
Hey Graeme – whoever gets the last word on this blog wins. So we win and you lose.
For the archives !
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