Seal pups have been drowning because of thin and melting ice due to warmer than usual weather. So, the Canadian government has reduced the hunting quota by about 20 percent according to Doug Struck writing for the Washington Post:
“Canadian authorities reduced the quotas on the harp seal hunt by about 20 percent after overflights showed large numbers of seal pups were lost to thin and melting ice in the lower part of the gulf, off Prince Edward Island.
“We don’t know if it’s weather or climate. But we have seen a trend in the ice conditions in the last four or five years,” said Phil Jenkins, a spokesman for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. “The pups can’t swim for very long. They need stable ice. If the ice deteriorates underneath them, they drown.”
“We’ve brought this seal herd back from 1.8 million in the 1970s to 5.5 million in 2004…
“Our scientists say that the 5.5 million population can sustain this kind of event, but it has to be managed” with the lower hunting quotas, he said.
Read the complete article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/03/AR2007040301754.html
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
Wheriz sid rog jim etc now?
The majority of Canadian seal pelts go to Norwegian company Rieber for futher manufacturing of products.
However, last year , tons of seal pelts were burned in Norway. It was not a financial option to sell pelts.
The EU is discussing right now a ban on imports of pelts from Canada,Norway, Namibia?. Only pelts from Greenland will be accepted.
This has caused frustration and anger in Norway and as a compromise the EU is discussing to label seal products ( like killed in Vesterisen near Greenland). Of course this is a warning label…
The ban is motivated by ” inhumane killing methods”.
However, Norwegian sealers say 98% of the seals die instantly, maybe the NGOs have other numbers.
Much is focused on the Canadian seal hunt, but nothing is mentioned about the Russian one, even hardcore sealers say it is inhumane….
“We can’t control global warming in the short term, but we can control the hunt by ending it.”
Typical backwards logic from an animal rights activist desperately trying to frame her “anti” argument in the guise of more appealing conservation terms.
Surprisingly, her ridiculous statement gets the final word in the article. How come the journalists don’t question this sort of claptrap? How many other industries are controlled by stamping them out?
The recently ended Norwegian survey from seal killing grounds near Greenland showed that there were less sea ice this year….
Not much of a choice – be clubbed to death or drown.
The story was front page news in The Sunday Express, 1st April:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/3293
The Canadian fishing authorities have already recognised the melt is having an impact on seal numbers and has reduced this season’s slaughter from the 335,000 killed last year to a new quota of 270,000 cubs.
A spokesman for Canada’s Department of Fisheries and Oceans denied that the hunt was harming the seals.
“It is a sustainable hunt. Over the years we have seen the number of harp seals increase from 1.8million to 5.5million,” he said.
We should be careful not to read too much into the 20% quota reduction.
The 325,000 (ish) quotas of recent years were specifically set high in order to effect a small reduction in the seal herds that in some quarters are seen as too numerous.
These high quotas were always due for a reduction even before this year’s ice conditions were noted.
Up here on Baffin Island, we have seen a massive increase in numbers of Harp Seals. Many Inuit elders have mentioned that they think the Harps will push out the ring seals which are a staple of the local diet.
I’m not experienced enough to corroborate that but I will mention that on my last seal hunting trip this past summer, I counted over 125 Harp seals to only one Ring Seal that day.
Ring seals taste wonderful, Harp seals don’t (at least to me) so the day’s hunt was an expensive wash-out.
For those who like a little diversity in their propaganda as well as their diet:
An Enviro’s Case for the Seal Hunt:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/03/07/SealHunt/
IceClass: Interesting read the “Tyee”, good even for an independent I guess. Still haven worked out where they are aimed at though.
Paul Biggs: Oz media failed to run with it apart from our ABC radio a few days back. When I first heard it I reckoned it was another genuine report that things ain’t what they used to be.
What is surprising, no one here has made a link yet to the plight of polar bears.
As a former sea “hunter” (mutton birds) with family tradition bearing down from way back I see all these signs as bad, costal people in the north appear to be loosing a primary industry regardless of quotas etc.
Folks downunder wondering what is biting me, reverse case? From local experience governments are slow to respond appropriately to seal loss as our fishermen usually prevail in terms of maintaining their livelihood. Seals colonies left alone are the best indicators of all fish stocks.
In the warm waters of Bass Strait, both seals and fish were decimated by decades of over exploitation. Recovery for is extremely slow unless all human interference is completely stopped.
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/fahan_mi_shipwrecks/infohut/sealing.htm
Sealing anywhere is a brutal trade. The process of mass slaughter lowers our sensitivity to many things including our place with each other and the environment.
http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/projects/counterpoints/Proc_2003/A8.htm
Grabbing your share in time as a singular focus is in fact self destructive. Finding any limit is most difficult of all. That part of human nature is not yet understood at any level of modern society. Extinctions will continue.
I suspect Bass Strait people today have something in common with a few odd Canadians, a Celtic tradition and a hunger for blubber.
With regard to threads and themes Jennifer; I offer this case to the keen reader on the issue of formal process re our environment. It’s only taken Oz about 200 years to tidy up on future directions.
http://www.rpdc.tas.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/63641/Report_Islands_271003.pdf
This is the type of doc (80 pages PDF) it takes to keep the likes of my grubby hands off the hapless innocents so dependent on fragile off shore havens for a start in life. Here a major threat has always been summer camp fires.
The truly keen will note the RPDC is the same org that got rolled on the Gunns Pulp Mill Proposal
It’s not the Inuits that participate in the Canadian seal slaughter. Why do they seal?
The population was much larger than currently in the beginning of last cantury.
Is it for keeping the poor fishing villages alive? Or is it this nonsense that the seals eat the fish?
I could undesrstand and support sealing if the meat was utilised , but it is not….
In todays market based economy , I think it is strange that the fisherman can’t find any other occupation or move their ass to another state.
In the article it states that an 71 year old man needs sealing for food and shelter??? Isn’t Canada one of the richest countries in the world?
Re the seal pelts , they all go to Rieber, and last year they burnt thousands of tons of pelts because there was no demand …
Ann,
Can’t remember where, but I read that pelt prices were pretty high last year.
I assume that with money from pelts they can benefit in that way.
Ann,
Also, the USA is even richer than Canada, but the Americans don’t suggest their Alaska whalers move somewhere where they needn’t take part in what an Australian representative recently described as a “barbaric” activity
🙂
I want to know the rules that we’re playing by.
David,
I don’t oppose that a few local fishermen kill some seals…
I just don’t believe this slaughter will help to bring back the fisheries.
They kill and kill seals …but no more fish….
David,,
Methinks in this case you are mixing apples with oranges.
I don’t oppose the Alaskan aboriginal whale hunt, though I really think they should improve their killing methods a lot.
The Canadian fishermen and Gov’t are responsible that the ground fish industry has collapsed.
It’s not the seals that are to be blamed for this.
The blame for this is overfishing and bottom trawling. Still the Canadian Gov’t is not opposed to bottom trawling and doesn’t support a high seas moratorium .
Hi Ann,
Well, at least with respect to the DFO they aren’t suggesting that the harp seal hunt is intended to bring back the cod fishery:
———
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/myth_e.htm
Myth #4: The Canadian government is allowing sealers to kill thousands of seals to help with the recovery of cod stocks.
Reality: Several factors have contributed to the lack of recovery of Atlantic cod stocks, such as fishing effort, poor growth and physical condition of the fish, and environmental changes.
In addition, there are many uncertainties in the estimates of the amount of fish consumed by seals. The commercial quota is established on sound conservation principles, not an attempt to assist in the recovery of groundfish stocks.
———
I see this page also says that average price per pelt received by sealers increased by 77% over the 2005 average price.
David,
The common reason worldwide to cull seals is for their supposed impact on the fisheries.
I can give you examples from statements from Canadian fishermen that they blame the decline on the seals….
Maybe the Canadians now have realised that this is a myth…
I can also give you the link to the Norwegian article on seal pelts…. and we have been discussing this on a previous thread with Peter C, George, and they have provided a full translation…it was Norwegian seal pelts to Rieber, who burnt them, the same Rieber that buys the Canadian ones, doesn’t make any sense!!!
Maybe you are correct that the Canadian pelts are valuable for the fishermen but isn’t the hunt heavily subsidised??
And no I,m not in support for this big culling, if people want seal pelts in fashion houses( I know some big fashion houses market them??? , like Versace) I think it’s better if they buy them from Greenland….
OT (can’t seem to post to the original thread on it), but Ann, apparently the Esperanza docked today.
Ann,
The DFO page also notes that the seal hunt is no longer subsidised (as of 2001).
OK, David….btw thanx for the info on the Espy! Interesing….anyway , I’m not so much for all this animal cullings, methinks it’s kind of anti-life!
Mmmm, anti-life… I suppose those in favour of culling as an option might suggest that ruling out culling as an option is anti-environment, or anti-biodiversity. Personally I care more about the long term environment than fleeting individual lives of animals, so not really “anti-life”, but also I don’t place the lives of animals which will all die eventually of some cause above longer term considerations.
Wanna ask you some things about the Espy actually – why are they so desperate to show off their ship to the public? Is it like a mini Disneyland on there or something? I don’t understand why they are making so much fuss… seems most likely (to me) that they just want an opportunity to give out some propaganda leaflets and potentially raise some funds to justify spending all the money on this whaling campaign this year. So far at least 2.5 months have been spent on this thing, I don’t know what environmental benefits they have achieved for it. Financially too, I don’t think they have had much good publicity out of it.
>Mmmm, anti-life… I suppose those in favour of culling as an option might suggest that ruling out culling as an option is anti-environment, or anti-biodiversity. Personally I care more about the long term environment than fleeting individual lives of animals, so not really “anti-life”, but also I don’t place the lives of animals which will all die eventually of some cause above longer term considerations.
David,
I have really wanted to make constructive discussions with you…but this recent post of yours make it difficult….Geee, you would never had made it to a physician or a veterinarian…. you could never had vowed the Hippocrates oath with such logic…
You see David , I have always been into saving lives, be it humans or animals and with such logic as yours I hope you will never get in touch with in animals… are you only interested in cullings???
At least you are honest about your feelings….
Ann,
I’m not “only interested” in culling – I just can’t see the reason to rule it out as a possible option where it may serve an environmental / conservation benefit.
This seems to be a national policy with regard to domestic decision making. The Aussie kangaroo cull appears to be carried out in the name of the environment, in New Zealand there are also wild horse culls… etc.
You know, say you have a situation where failing to take action may lead to irreversible environmental consequences. Of course, there are alternatives to culling, but I can’t argue that in some cases “culling” (or sport hunting say) is never ever the most favourable option. My view is that we should not allow negative, irreversible environmental changes to take place in favour of keeping individual animals alive.
Cant seals swim??? Stupid tools!
What Next…….Seals dont like swimming? Seales dont like fish? I dont like fish but thats just a personal fact. No more personal facts.
Do U like Fish?
Do you like Seals?
I dont, but do you?
Now thats the real quesiton
Bye for now
Love Nibbler or Nibbles
Ps Can seals swim? Thats the question
David,
Last comment for today…
I doubt you have the seal problem in Japan, but here up in the Nordic countries as well in Canada , there is an increasing seal hate among fishermen and they want to see the seals dead…
I can understand that some fishermen want to kill some seals when they are destroying fishing gear etc. but I really doubt that mass culling of seals solves the problem with fisheries.
OK, a small hunt could be acceptable but this mass culling is a very doubtful solution re conservation benefits IMO.
“OK, a small hunt could be acceptable but this mass culling is a very doubtful solution re conservation benefits IMO.”
Ann, you don’t make it clear either what you’d consider to be a “small” hunt or even why you’d then call it acceptable to you.
Compared to the average catch of fish or to a genuine cull like the 5 million kangaroos harvested each year in Oz, the Canadian Seal harvest *is* small.
It is not undertaken as a cull per se (although the recent high quotas “were” designed as a cull and were always intended to be lowered) but as an economic venture. Much as other rural populations make a living cutting down renewable wildlife habitat in the form of wood products etc.
I’ll bypass your comments on moving rural populations out of the country as it’s clear that you haven’t considered the ecological impacts of urbanisation and besides your comments are the classic foothold of the fascists when it comes to these arguments and rural populations the world over are increasingly vulnerable to such facile thinking.
Lastly, without wanting to sound combative, why would the opinion of a Norwegian (or an Australian for that matter) have any importance when it comes to a demonstably sustainable Canadian harvest of seals?
As for seal pelt prices, they’ve hit record highs over the last few years, producing bonuses for our hunters.
Perhaps Rieber were destroying lesser grade stock?
The attitudes of fishermen to seals is often directly related to their ability to control them or even have a say in their relationships with them.
Back in Europe I notice a lot of fishermen and fish farmers have a bit of a hate-on for seals but then again they’ve been banned from defending their nets or pens for very arbitrary and non-conservationist reasons.
Where people harvest seals and they are a part of daily life, I feel people are often more tolerant.
Off topic, the Greenpeace’s ship the Esperanza has docked in Japan but will only stay for two days to resupply as the authorities has turned downed GPs request to open up the boat for the public.
> Lastly, without wanting to sound combative, why would the opinion of a Norwegian (or an Australian for that matter) have any importance when it comes to a demonstably sustainable Canadian harvest of seals?
Hey Iceclass, as I’m off for the rest of the week a short reply here.
An opinion from me in the blogosphere means zero , zippo, this is just a discussion, matey!
And Iceman, I’m not Norwegian , I’m Swedish…
And David, no such thingy as wild horses in NZ, they are only undomesticated, there are only wild horses in the Gobi desert…
Ann,
Apparently the Esperanza will go to Korea next. It will be interesting to see how welcome they are there.
There has been no press coverage at all of the Greenpeace visit, and really, there has been nothing worth reporting (the “violation of free speech” complaint was ridiculous as there was nothing stopping them holding press conferences as normal).
One Greenpeacer complained that they are viewed as “bad people” in Japan. People who do illegal things are often regarded as bad people. Greenpeace’s bad image is their own responsibility. Greenpeace has also said “we just want to start a dialogue”. Perhaps they should have tried this before chasing the whalers around the Antarctic 8 or so times, getting their boats involved in collisions, deliberately obstructing what is a legal activity, etc. And as I’ve noted elsewhere, the NY Times Editorial was successful in generating media coverage of the whaling issue, where as Greenpeace was not. Perhaps no one sees any point in “talking” with an irrelevant group of people such as Greenpeace? Toning down their one-sided propaganda would be a good first step to making a clean break from their past.
Ann,
The Kaimanawa horses are regarded as “wild” in New Zealand. Not native, but I think back home people think “wild” and “undomesticated” means the same thing.
Iceman and David,
Organisations like WWF and Greenpeace don’t oopose the seal hunt, actually Greenpeace has stated that ” seals are out”. That is their opinion , but it’s not mine.
I support only a small hunt ( I don’t know the English name) but it ‘s what we Swedish call a ” protection hunt”. It is a hunt on animals that destroy fishing gear or are a threat to fish farms etc.
You see guys I’m not into this fur business, but I don’t want to harm the Inuit hunt.
Killing this big amount of seals can IMO have a negative impact on the environment and not the opposite as David suggests.
Look what is happening in Namibia, where they kill as well this huge anumber of seals. The fisheries are completely ruined and the sea bottoms are dead and only the jellyfish is thriving due to imbalance in the eco-system.
Iceman pointed out one thing that is correct IMO as well. Communities that are allowed to kill a ( small)number of animals might show a bigger respect to animals. I think that is a correct observation. This is the case with communities that live near the animals and we can witness this in their art and handcraft that they respect the animals and don’t consider them only as a pest but a resource.
David asked if there would be any problems for Greenpeace to be welcome in Korea.
Methinks there will be no problems. Last time they visited Korea on an anti whaling campaign, they met no resistance, on the contrary, they coworked with some local anti whaling organisations.
About two or three years ago, I spoke with a local Canadian veterinarian on the seal slaughter.
She said the Canadians will never end the hunting, despite all opposition.
Wish though that they should use rifles and not hakapikas as killing methods.
As I understand it is not as much the clubbing of seals that is the main problem from animal welfare aspect,but the hunters have been accused of skinning the seals when they are still alive.
Ann,
Apparently some hunters are not up to scratch. They should be prosecuted.
But I don’t suggest we ban driving, just because some irresponsible people drink and drive.
“An opinion from me in the blogosphere means zero , zippo, this is just a discussion, matey!”
But it’s not an equal discussion is it? Any European housewife who’s never even seen a seal let alone delved into the intracacies of rural renewable resource use has more power over the practice than even the sealers themselves.
That should be seen as a problem and my commnet was more to hear from you what value you place on the local in these conundrums.
“I support only a small hunt ( I don’t know the English name) but it ‘s what we Swedish call a ” protection hunt”. It is a hunt on animals that destroy fishing gear or are a threat to fish farms etc.”
Here we go again. Please illustrate what in your mind constitutes a “small” hunt. You might be surprised at how much a “protective” hunt could produce.
Besides, you are closing off the use of a fully sustainable and renewable resource for purely emotional reasons.
In this day and age we need more sustainable options, not less.
“You see guys I’m not into this fur business, but I don’t want to harm the Inuit hunt.”
Then you have a problem. Fur itself is a wonderful, plentiful, sustainable and renewable resource. The harvest keeps hunters, trappers and their families connected to nature and valuing nature. Messing with Inuit harvesting in almost any sector has direct impacts on their food production systems as well as their economy which is marginal but culturally very important.
Much the same can be said for the Maritime hunters too…unless of course your solution is the old final solution of moving rural populations into your cities for reinternment.
The discussion around what to you constitutes a small or a “big” hunt is very meaningful.
Mentioned in George Wenzel’s book is an instance where in the early 80’s Inuit representatives met with represenatives of the UK RSCPCA. The Inuit were desperately trying to make the Europeans understand the fragile nature of their hunting economy and the devestation the anti-sealing campaigns were going to have on their people. The RSPCA consultant Stefan Ormrod was having hung up on the numbers of seals the Inuit were taking and called theirs a “clearly commercial” hunt.
Two facts were missing in Ormrod’s analysis: first, the Inuit were killing an awful lot less seals than they had traditionally when seals meant everything from meat to tent & kayak covers through mentrual pads and rope. Secondly, the number of seals the Inuit were requesting didn’t even amount to enough seals to keep Inuit from starvation on a purely calorific basis.
This should be an illustration of uneducated opinion being dangerous when it comes from the more powerful without any vested interest in the issue beyond their own aestethic and moral prejudices.
One long term end result is that Inuit are a people who care deeply about their environment and who have been distanced from mainstream environmental organisations. In the end it has made things a LOT easier for non-renewable resource industries from Uranium to diamonds and oil to access what used to be inuit lands.
“Killing this big amount of seals can IMO have a negative impact on the environment and not the opposite as David suggests.”
Well the Canadian herds are doing very well despite what you term to be a “large” hunt. Furthermore this “large” hunt has been going on for centuries and the numbers of seals show the hunt to be demonstrably sustainable.
“Look what is happening in Namibia, where they kill as well this huge anumber of seals. The fisheries are completely ruined and the sea bottoms are dead and only the jellyfish is thriving due to imbalance in the eco-system.”
Are you seriously suggesting that a hunt of 60,000 – 85,000 namibian seals is the cause of collapsed fisheries and dead sea bottoms???
Firstly, the Namibian seal hunt is hardly “huge”. It is even less seals than Inuit take and you didn’t seem to think their hunt was “huge”.
Secondly seal hunting in Namibia is not the cause of collapsing fisheries; fishing is the cause and predominantly fishing from European Fleets. The same disproportinate amount of power that allows the EU to strong arm its way into West African fisheries quotas allows EU housefraus to dictate how and if their seals should be harvested.
Crazy!
So, really Ann, if you have any evidence to illustrate your theory of seal hunt induced fishery collapse, I’d be interested in reading it.
I would also be interested in further illustration of Riber’s supposed burning of pelts as quite honestly, ther last few years have seen the highest prices EVER paid for seal pelts which goes to show that dispite thrity years of intense (and lucrative) organised demonistaion, the marketplace disagrees with the animal protest industry.
“Iceman pointed out one thing that is correct IMO as well. Communities that are allowed to kill a ( small)number of animals might show a bigger respect to animals.”
Except that is not the point I made or what I said. Once again, you are down to playing semantics with your “small” and large hunts without any logic to your terminology.
“This is the case with communities that live near the animals and we can witness this in their art and handcraft that they respect the animals and don’t consider them only as a pest but a resource.”
Canadian sealers most definitely see seals as a valued resource both culturally and economically and they live near seals.
“She said the Canadians will never end the hunting, despite all opposition.”
That’s probably a good observation. If after thirty years of money grubbing protests in a can the hunt continues, it’s a good bet that the animal protest industry has thrown everything it can at the hunt and in common with so many of these kind of campaigns the targetted communities and groups become more resloved than ever to continue.
“Wish though that they should use rifles and not hakapikas as killing methods.”
This again seems like a triumph of emotional ignorance over substance.
The hakapik is a perfectly suited tool to kill seals on the ice floes. A seal’s skull is thin and easy to crush. Almost every blow would be a kill and with a second one mandated by regulations as well as a poke in the eye to guage death, this should ordinarily suffice.
Problem is the effect of those EU housewives. They think clubs “look” bad so we move to rifles (with hakapiks still in use).
Rifles could easily increase the struck and lost rates as they are shot from a distance allowing more chances of wounding and escaping. You also have more chance to miss a few seals when your looking for the carcasses.
Another example of the aestethic prejudices of those removed from the environment and ecological knowledge causing more problems than those they apparently felt needed addressing in the first place.
As for the skinning alive canard, this has been a constant int eh animal protest industry accusations since they commisioned some fisherman to skin a seal alive and filmed it for propoganda purposes.
No one in their right mind wants to skin a fighting seal with claws and teeth. All the more so when all you need do to ensure you don’t get mauled is another sharp crack on the skull.
Here’s to sustainablity over ignorance and emotion.
We have today an almost unlimited ability to communicate, cooperate and share information on a scale never before attained.
Organisations whose lucrative bread and butter is demonization and prejudice of “other” resource users is the last thing we need to carry into the new century and should be ignored.
Preferable killing method of whales according to independant veterinations working for an IFAW study:
1) Stunning of the seal( by clubbing or shooting)
2) Checking eye reflex
3) Exsanguation ( bleed out) to make sure that the seal is really killed.
No shooting in open waters.
I will try and find the Rieber article as well. This is a case of unsound management of natural resources.
Ooops, still too early for me !!!!
Read veterinarians!
The thread re the unsound management of seal pelts in Norway by the worlds biggest manufacturer of seal pelts, Rieber, that is as well the major buyer of the Canadian ones.
Look from 22 June 2006 :
http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives/001432.html
Thanks Ann but i only see mention that these skins were supposedly burned but I don’t see any reasons given or even that these pelts were indeed destroyed for certain let alone why.
That remains a strange mystery at a time when pelts are bringing in higher prices than ever at a variety of auction venues.
Perversely, the UK press has been reporting that seal pelts have been proving so popular in the UK that they need banning (which sort of dismantles the myth that these pelts are an affront to public morality – which is the legislative approach used by the animal protest industry.
Ordinarily, I would choke on the use of the terms independant and IFAW in the same phrase.
The IFAW’s stock in trade is to discredit wildlife management regimes, create the perception of a moral or environmental problem and fund raise on the back of such a manufactured conundrum.
IMHO, they are the devil incarnate, a force for dysfunction in sustainable wildlife management and at the very least represent a seriously regressive attempt at the privatization of public policy.
That said, I believe all the points raised above are already mandated by legislation so I’m not sure what your point is here.
During a press release yesterday from a Norwegian animal organisations it was stated that during the lasts years hunts, pelts have been burned from the hunts as well as this hunt AND burning are heavily subsidised.
I know as well that much meat is dumped( not all).
As far as I know the Norwegian hunt is about protecting the fisheries as well as to cull some coastal seals that they believe will infect fish with seal worms.
Re IFAW, many here dislike IFAW, David, George, hey even Libby had an objection.
Personally methink they have done some good deeds( I have personally been involved in an IFAW oil spill respons and they donated lots of equipment and offered experienced help etc )
Sure, the draw back with all these NGOs are IMO that they are so much into fundraising( but how else can they work) and this is frustrating when they beg about all this money….
Iceman, and you must be aware of that I can’t post any animal rights stuff here…all my info comes from a fishermen, whalers and sealers site…
Iceman,
I have beeen in the NGO business and I really don’t support them fulltime, but who are you to bad-mouth some animal welfare organisations?
IMO , you didn’t provide us with trustful and reliable info on the polar bear issue. As a matter of fact your words contradicted most/some trustworthy work/scientists on the topic.
Actually, it did seem like you were lobbying for the US polar bear trophy hunting industry!!!
If you want some more info on polar bears , the people up in Svalbard are against a hunt and National Geographic is currently up there making a story….
Well, maybe we could ask Jennifer as well to open up a new polar bear thread so we could have access to the newest info on this????
The Rieber story:
http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/press_releases/principal_buyer_of_canadian_seal_skins.html
Iceman has mentioned that the seal hunt and use of the hakapiks are humane.
Methinks if he would like to be more trustworthy in this seal hunting issue , he should have mentioned that an optimal kill is not always possible.
Autopsy studies have indicated that not all seals have skull fractures, which would mean that they were not unconscious etc.
Maybe a more accurate description of the seal hunt is that it might be sustainable but not very humane…
If 1 million seals are to be slaughtered , and the the stats show that 98% of the seals will die instantly, still this means that many thousands of the seals will suffer….
Anne,
if the destruction of these seal pelts was “heavily subsidized” then one should be able to track this or least have some direct comment from the relevant management authority.
To date this is missing. All I see is innuendo and great timing.
How would you explain the need to burn these skins when pelts have been fetching record prices for a number of years prior to these reports.
Would you not acknowledge that the record prices being paid have undermined the claims made by various components of the animal protest industry that the seal hunt is universally condemned?
If it is, why are so many people prepared to spend so much to get pelts and items made from pelts?
Even if these stories were true (which to date, I do not believe – pending better sources than the HSUS for whom distortion and obfuscation are it’s bread & butter) how does this negate the fact that individuals are still prepared to pay high sums of money for pelts and coats despite this trade being the subject of probably the longest running and most expensive campaign of demonization ever levelled at a resource user and their products?
Do you at least acknowledge that the timing of these reports is rather beneficial to the animal protest industry whose arguments werew getting seriously undermined by the voice of the market?
Sure elements of the animal protest industry may do the occasional good deed whether for PR purposes or not but so what?
I’m sure Bin Laden has done a few good deeds as would have Al Capone but does this make a good argument for terrorists and gangsters?
I think not.
The likes of the IFAW are hardly ‘begging” for cash. These are VERY sophisticated fund raisers with literally millions in the bank.
“you must be aware of that I can’t post any animal rights stuff here…all my info comes from a fishermen, whalers and sealers site…”
Then I do not understand why you consistently offer press releases from the animal protest industry or press reports based on animal protest industry press releases?
I would be most interested in any verifiable and independent sources you have for the stories of pelt burning.
It just sounds too good to be true to me.
“who are you to bad-mouth some animal welfare organisations?”
I had not realised that we were applying a caste sytem to who can and cannot comment on the merits or lack thereof of the animal protest industry.
If you take exception to any of my comments on Polar Bears, then feel free to let me know.
I do however take offence to your need for the constant stream of ad hominems. I do not seek to deceive in anything I contribute here. On the contrary, my feeling is that we are ten years beyond that strategy having any merit.
With the internet, we are now able to cross reference and verify information much more quickly and easily.
There would be no point beyond ego to contribute anything I knew to be untrue.
Now, If I have made a mistake, then that is entirely possible and I invite you to call me on it either by direct email or on a new thread.
I would actually welcome Jennifer creating a follow-up Polar Bear thread and feel it might be topical seeing as the deadline for submissions on the topic to USF&WS was last week.
I am gathering some of the more meaningful submissions as I type and would welcome any useful and non-accusatory contributions on the topic.
I’m not sure what relevance you ascribe to the issue of sports hunts on Svarlbad. My understanding is that there have either never been organized sports hunts on Svarlbad or that there hasn’t been any for a long time.
No, Anne I am not lobbying for any “US Polar Bear Hunting Industry”. If you had looked you would have noticed that my concern has been Canadian Bears and their socio-economic value to Canadian Inuit. I am not a bear hunter myself nor do I work for or am associated with anyone who organizes sports hunts for Polar Bears.
I hope you will accept this at face value and not continue to seek to cast aspersions on my motivations and integrity.
“Methinks if he would like to be more trustworthy in this seal hunting issue , he should have mentioned that an optimal kill is not always possible.”
Nowhere on this issue have I maintained that ANY killing practice is 100% effective and instantaneous. In fact, I acknowledged this in mentioning kangaroo shooters and commercial slaughterhouse workers.
Statistically speaking there will always be a small number of botched kills.
In the end though this is fairly insignificant and certainly not a valid reason to shut down a sustainable natural renewable resource harvest and put people out of work.
Even a small amount of common sense would dictate that no one in their right mind wants to skin a conscious seal with claws and teeth.
Only people that haven’t been any where near a harp seal would stick to such fancy.
“Maybe a more accurate description of the seal hunt is that it might be sustainable but not very humane…”
Then case closed!
If it’s sustainable then it is no longer an environmental concern (and hence not much of a topic for this blog on “environmnetal” issues) and how much the little baby seal goes ouch before he croaks just doesn’t concern me, certainly no more than the TTD of the average roadkill incident bothers the average commuter on his way to work every day.
As long as the sealers are doing what they can to harvest the seals with as reasonably little harm as possible then there is no case to single the swilers or their livelihood for demonization.
…and Anne, the handle I go by on this blog is IceClass as in the vessel class and not Iceman the character from the Top Gun movie.
🙂
“I do however take offence to your need for the constant stream of ad hominems.”
IceClass, you seem to overlook that you made a derogatory comment about EU women. I believe Ann took offence to it, and I certainly did. The comment was unnecessary. You were not simply passing comment on an individual here, but rather on a whole group in society.
“If it’s sustainable then it is no longer an environmental concern (and hence not much of a topic for this blog on “environmnetal” issues)…”
You will find by looking back at th archives that animal welfare issues amongst others have been an issue on this blog. You will also find that welfare and ethics go hand in hand with most environmental issues nowadays concerning individuals and populations.
“…and how much the little baby seal goes ouch before he croaks just doesn’t concern me, certainly no more than the TTD of the average roadkill incident bothers the average commuter on his way to work every day.”
It may not concern you, but it obviously concerns many others. As for commuters and roadkill, could you please provide some evidence for this, or are you speaking purely for yourself?
“As long as the sealers are doing what they can to harvest the seals with as reasonably little harm as possible…”
I think you may find that killing constitutes harming.
IceClass(OK, I will ditch the Iceman label IceCold),
A quick reply here as I have to reread your comment.
Re the sustainability of the Canadian seal hunt, I believe it was your very enemy Ian Sterling who said that. The very Sterling that is a protector of the polar bears and has made studies that polar bear populations are not in the very best condition etc. Same studies carried out on ringed seals as well.
Re the whale hunt. I offered you a finger , a compromise solution, but you and David are eating my whole hand…
It’s better to talk about the quota that is taken today and get it accepted etc. instead of talking about an expanded industry….
I see that you are a bit misinformed about the Norwegian and Icelandic whale meat and blubber.
The Norwegians are only eating the meat, the blubber is dumped…. and no, forget about exporting the blubber to Japan, it is too contaminated.
Icelanders consume both the meat and blubber, but frankly I have not info about contaminated Icelandic blubber.
IceClass,
You have accused me of ad hom attacks. Well, my comment on the hakapika might have been a bit over the top but the content was that you must treat your next and animals the way you want to be treated yourself, and you admitted this was violence when it came to youself, comprendre?
Re my posts on Riber and the pelt burning. Me, George and Peter Corkeron have posted translations on the Norwegian article on this issue here at Jen’s blog.
FYI, I can mention if this was in the least incorrect , I would have been 100% sure that Rune from High North Alliance had contradicted our comments. I posted this HSUS article as well because they had a better translation in English than mine.
Re road kills. I’m sure that many people do care about road kills, actually in most countries, it is illegal to run away from a hit animal , and it’s a law that you must call the police when you hit an animal.
Animal welfare organisations have done lots of good deeds , even if you don’t want to confess this. They have highlighted animal cruelty issues etc. I’m even sure that they have helped to improve the Canadian seal hunt re a more humane hunt.
And there exists as well a code of hunter’s ethics.
Re animal welfare issues ,Jennifer opened up the thread on Kangaroos, Minkes and Beef , only to highlight the animal welfare issue. If you have other opinions , I’m sure she will open up a thread for your view as well!
I forgot one point IceClass,
Say IF the hunt is as humane as you and the Canadian authorities say, why don’t they let the NGOs near the slaughter????
And regarding the skinning. It has not been about skinning a kicking and biting seal. It has more been about that the seals have made movements during the skinning procedure, and it is unclear if it’s a reflex or if the seal is still conscious.
IceClass,
Here’a an independent article on the burning of the seal pelts, published on a fishermen, sealer’s and whaler’s site:
http://www.fiskaren.no/incoming/article106947.ece?show_result=true
If you truly want it translated by an independent person, you might contact the Norwegian Embassy???
The pelts were burned according to a spokesman for the Ministry of Coastal and Fisheries Affairs ” as a lack of markets”.
I’m sorry but the suggestion that we cannot do anything to stop global warming right now is absolute propoganda.
The self-righteous such as Pamela Anderson and Paul McCartney can lead by example. Instead of criticizing a seal hunter for trying to increase his limited annual income by another 30%, they can move out of their huge energy-sapping mansions and penthouse suites today. They can stop travelling on private jets.
Oh, but I forgot, we should not expect such huge sacrifices in celebrity lifestyles today, that’s according to some animal rights organizations. No, no, today’s answer to the environmental nightmare which is occuring rests in the hands of a seal hunter making a proud living from a seal herd 6 million strong. What absolute rubbish! What absolute propoganda!