It is generally assumed that mining companies are bad and green groups are good. This general impression is so well entrenched within western civilization that many environmental activists have got used to being able to tell stories about mining, logging, fishing and farming operations that are misleading, exaggerated or simply wrong. They have got used to professional journalists just repeating their propaganda.
Of course, not all environmentalists mislead, just like not all mining companies are bad. But gee it can be hard getting people to accept this. Most environmentalists are seen as angels with absolutely no vested interests.
It can also be hard getting people to understand that “making poverty history” is about more than attending a rock concert or making a donation. Development and industry are real solutions to poverty and they often involve some environmental harm. Miranda Devine makes some comment on this issue and also gives the new documentary ‘Mine Your Own Business’ a plug in her column in today’s Sydney Morning Herald:
“AT U2’s Sydney concerts last week, Bono urged the audience to text their names to a Make Poverty History phone number. Later he flashed the names on a big screen and sent a thank you text to all those mobile phones in Telstra Stadium. As an act of charity it doesn’t come much easier, unless you count wearing wristbands.
This is not to sneer at Bono for raising consciousness of the world’s poor, or his audience for making a gesture.
But as protesters and green activists gather in Melbourne this weekend to lay the usual blame for poverty on the greed of developed nations, a powerful new documentary shines light on a different villain.
Mine Your Own Business, which opens this week, shows that the “powerful group telling the world’s poor how to live, how to work, even how to think” are not the world leaders gathered in Melbourne. They’re not even wealthy multinational corporations, but wealthy multinational environment groups such as Greenpeace.
Read the complete article here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/make-poverty-history-first-by-getting-rid-of-the-greens/2006/11/18/1163266827937.html
—————
For information on when and where the documentary is screening this week in Australia visit: www.ipa.org.au
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
I think that after the melbourne riots against the G20 (what exactly was the essence of their protest?), Walk against Warming (accompanied by cold wind and rain), Al Gore and his teen thriller Inconvenient Truth (more rain and storms) whilst death and destruction follow “pro democracy” forces in Tonga, Timor, Solomons etc…
…..mob violence has just taken another big hit.
Rog,
Tim Blair has some interesting photos of the G20 protestors.
Those who need to resort to violence to make a point are intolerant, nascent dictators.
I’ve posted a comment by Monckton on the geoheresy site by the way – got it this morning from CM himself.
What most greenies do not understand is that the so called “environmental disasters” from mining isn’t generally the mining company’s fault but the fact that in the 3rd world mining companies have to team up with local businesses and obey the dicates of the local politicians.
This is not a satisfactory state of affairs, but when any mining operation has to rely on the payment of bribes in order to be allowed to mine (it’s not the companies proactively bribing locals, it’s the locals demanding “payments” that is the problem.
We never had it in Australia before until Native Title was put in place. Now it is no different to a developing nation where various groups, protected by the law, can demand “payments” before mining leases are granted or exploration is permitted.
Behind all this is are the political left with one goal in mind.
Louis,
‘Behind all this is are the political left with one goal in mind.’
You are so right. And these devious political misfits are leaving a trail of destruction in their wake. They just don’t seem to care. It could even be suggested that’s what these groups are after. A type of chaos.
‘We never had it in Australia before until Native Title was put in place.’
Ironically, if the truth be known, amongst the various indigenous groups themselves, both in Australia and overseas, there are high levels of animosity, often deep seated historical hatred between them. They do not and will not respect each other due to deep seated ‘cultural’ differences. The lure of large amounts of ‘easy’ money or property control will see it get worse.
But of course that’s all our fault.
Steve
Steve I don’t think you actually understand the issue.
The political left’s goal is to oversea the full implementation of social democracy over the planet.
You agree with this fact?
Before Native Title the industry could go out and explore and find things. Now we have to pay through the nose before anything happens. Overseas the Greens and Democrats would call it bribery. Here its called reconciliation.
It has nothing whatsover to do with the inability of tribal groups to respect each other or whatever point you are trying to make.
What a disturbingly rabid cheer squad at the other of the spectrum (logarithmic scale). You guys are a real worry.
Yep the G20 protestors are dickheads. Bloody poor form. Yep GP gets its wrong sometimes. Yep some of their policies need a boot up the bum.
But where are we on balance?
But this all pre-supposes an angelic global mining, fishing, farming and forestry sector. Come on – there’s plenty of room for improvement and given a lot of enviro-atrocities are out of sight and out of mind to many of us – we have only environmental organisations to reflect these issues back to us. There’s a great majority of middle class folks out there who finally weigh up the issues.
But green pressure does work – take cotton industry – no more drums – reuseable plastic crates for chemicals, tail-water return systems, vastly improved aerial application (conditions, nozzles, GPS etc). Much of this a conscious decision to get rid of the environmental problem after some lobbying pressure and bad publicity. So we’d be back in the 1950s without the environmental movement warts and all.
Luke,
An angelic global mining, fishing, farming and forestry sector – the primary producers in other words.
Environmental atrocities? Talk about rabid comments.
Miranda Devine is renowned for her top calibre journalism. I commend you all to read deeply of her other articles – conservative, gently yet thoroughly probing of climate concerns, and thoughtfully supportive of Madonna’s adoption efforts to save the world one child at a time. (If only every wealthy and famous person would selflessly adopt a 3rd world kid then the world would be a better place). You’ll find her divinely inspired journalism under the Opinion section of one of Australia’s highest quality journalistic dailies.
I’ll be picketing that movie, btw, as soon as I get my white suit back from the dry cleaners.
Louis – you miners are known for your disgusting environmental track record and exploitation of 3rd world labour. I reckon we need a mining environmental destruction tax levied.
Was that Steve or Stewie, Louis?
Is ad Hom a commonly mined element in Aust? The folk I know in the mining game are all lovely, worldly, concerned citizens who enjoy life, meditate when they remember and donate to environmental groups. Seriously.
The people I knew from ok tedi however were arrogant so and so’s but I wouldn’t extropolate from that anymore than I would from the mining movie.
Stewie
Good grief – I see what you mean – my PC is a HP 9440 mobile workstation with a pretty high res screen (1920 x 1200)and it’s a bit hard to read sometimes.
Jen’s website has the commentators details in a light blue font.
Focus, Focus, clean specs, clean screen.
Egad I have erred 🙂 !!!!
My comment was directed a Steve whom I know to be, er , inclined a certain way.
Hope that explains it Stewie.
Sorry for the error on my part.
Luke,
Ad hominem after ad hominem in the absence of facts.
Pinxi,
We in the mining world dislike pollution as any one else, but really, you have no idea of the politics that are involved in mining in 3rd world countries.
As for your ad homs of the people running Ok Tedi, namely the former BHP, perhaps you are right.
In the minining industry of Australia, the BHP company was regarded as more bureaucratic than government at the time, dominated as it was by the Australian trade union movement.
Bureaucrats of any political hue have always been arrogant.
Now we have to put up with a green hue of arrogance.
Louis.
That explains it.
Possession of facts have never hindered you before Louis.
Yes pollution and cleaning up like Mt Morgan leaking acid into the Dee River.
Luke,
Do you actually think about the comments you post here?
As Mt Morgan leaking into the Dee River.
What, a mountain called Morgan leaking into a river? How does a mountain leak into a river? By a mountainous pee?
The Jabliluka Uranium deposit was found by geochemical prospecting methods.
Stream sampling of the drainages of the NT resulted in some elevated uranium counts in a stream draining the Jabiluka deposit.
Seems that this naturally occurring uranium deposit was ‘polluting’ the environment. All before humans appeared, according to traditional beliefs.
We discover mineral deposits hidden from normal detection by the effect they have oon the geochemical balance of the regolith. We call them geochemical anomalies.
You prefer to call it pollution.
Luke, Pinxi,
As a matter of interest have you had any long term direct experience with environments you talk about?
This isn’t a trick question so doesn’t require a trick answer. I’d like to follow this up with another question(s) once your experience is known.
Obviously Louis you are totally unbriefed on important issues like acid pollution.
Luke,
Acid pollution?
What the acids from your gut when you barf into your partner’s rose garden?
Or the acid pollution from Mt Erebus in the Antarctic?
I have a good collection of straws here from which you are welcome to grasp.
Interesting Louis.
Also the Goulbourn River catchment in Victoria, and others I am sure, have mercury leaking into them from naturally occurring cinnabar lodes, while at Lakes Entrance, oil used to run down the beach from oil ‘springs’(?), until humans plugged them.
Stewie,
Really? At Lake’s Entrance they plugged the oil seeps?
Jees, did not know that.
Have you documented data? Not a big issue here right now, but down the track it might be useful.
No I don’t have documented evidence Louis. I was told this by people I worked for who were fisherman from there. They told me how the warm ‘oil’ used to bubble to the surface and they would actually swim (bath) in it. So I expect it was a watered down derivative of oil. On memory I think they send it used to just disappear into the sand. Some years later I put this to somebody else and they immediately confirmed the same (minus the swimming in it).
I’ll ask around and get more exact info if you like.
I believe there is quite a bit of hydro-thermal (?) activity just under the surface in this area to, as every now and again I hear talk of tapping it for its energy potential.
Louis you really are an ignorant old coot for someone who professes such academic standing. 25,000 dead fish. pH 4.8 ! The industry has a very poor record of cleaning up after itself.
Luke,
facts please, not your culling of numbers
Stewie
Stewie
hmm, ok, best to write your recollections for posterity in any case.
It’s these little anippets of human experience that get lost into the annals of time which we never get to hear about to modify the science that are important.
Drilling for oil in the Sydney Basin, but deep down.
Now that would cause a stir geologically.
Luke shows his true coiours; he equates G20 protestors with G20 and says that both need a “boot up the bum” and then calls for “balance”
What was the purpose of the G20 meeting Luke?
Stewie, neither Luke or pixie have any real life experience outside of a keyboard, except every 2nd thursday when Luke splashes out on a skinny latte.
Rog – probably to make some more money for your tax dodged share portfolio – but that would be just a guess.
Actually I don’t bother answering questions from gimps who can’t read and think disparate objects are identical (again).
Decaf with soy actually.
Luke,
I take it the answer is a resounding no. You do not have any (useful) direct experience with the natural environments you talk of. Probably haven’t got any long term experience with any natural environment at a guess.
Well then it goes like this, matey boy.
I can take documents, load them into my laptop, take them into the bush with me and read them around my campfire at night. It is not possible for me to take my campfire, the surrounding environment and load them into my laptop and bring them home. Well not exactly anyway.
One’s a virtual world. The others real.
Those I reckon who live in the virtual world, will come unstuck eventually. They can’t measure what they think they know against the real world.
Those who live in the real world will eventually learn. And they can measure what they experience against the virtual world.
Do you savi big pella wantok. I can dodge snakes during the day and have a decaf with soy around my campfire at night.
Stewie – So no – I’ve never been in the bush Stewie. What’s it like. Do you get scared of spiders and snakes? I imagine it must get hot sometimes and cold others. How do work out where you’re going. Wouldn’t your laptop get dirt in it if you took it outback? So many things to learn. Gee I’d really like to learn from you Stewie. Will you teach me.
Yo Stew my man, none of you guys bother answering questions by demanding blogians so I’m adopting the same philosophy – anyway do some background research and check me in Jen’s archives – then ask yourself if a whirlwind in a junkyard makes a 747. Perhaps like your sojourns in the bush – you see but you don’t observe. And no I normally just drink freeze fried Nescafe actually.
SO you’re actually saying Mt Morgan hasn’t got an ongoing acid emissions problem? Have you been to Mt Morgan Stewie? Of course if you were busy dodging snakes you may have missed it.
She’s a top quality journalist. A compassionate human being too.
You will remember her comments on Cyclone Larry:
‘We in Sydney are very sorry for the people in northern Queensland who have lost their homes to Cyclone Larry. But, much as we will miss their avocados and bananas on our supermarket shelves, we can live without their whingeing’.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/miranda-devine/this-is-no-new-orleans-so-enough-with-the-whingeing/2006/03/25/1143084044866.html
What a corker JD. Usually the urban greenies get accused of feel good PC hypocrisy, but she’d qualify for the Dumb & Dumber Urban Liberalite Award – promoting the rights of 3rd world locals in the mining movie but not give 2 hoots for our own farmers.
What environmental claims did I make stewie? Are you an evironmental scientist? I question anyone who claims to be in singular possession of the Facts and the One True Way of working, thinking and knowing and ironically, compromising. I challenge them to open the other eye.
Years working with people and businesses in remote areas but I don’t beat my hairy chest with my fists over it and claim to know all.
Heavy industry investors make rational decisions fully cognizant of the risks and opportunities when they undertake their projects. Extract tax breaks, pay bribes, accept compromises, deal with negative PR. Investing within corrupt or otherwise distorted regimes is a choice they make hoping to extract a profit.
This is recognised at the money end and having the luxury of distance and comfort, they play the game as hard as they can. The rigid narrow beliefs are most common at the coal face where workers naturally try to rationalise their involvement in that environment. Down with environmentalists and democracy? The ultimate irony is that the same investors who pay the salaries will give generously to environmental and human rights NGOs. Go figure!
Louis slags off stewie solely on the basis of misreading his name and assuming a mistaken identity, then accuses others of his favourite standby ‘ad homs’. His kettle needs a good polish.
Louis you’ve run such tight little circles above that I’ll leave you to find your own way home. Just be sure to put yr glasses on before reading the street signs else you wander into Hell.
So let me get this straight:
Trying to compare greenpeace, a multinational environment groups funded solely by individual donations (completely independent of companies or government money) as having similar levels of vested interests as companies who greenpeace may be targetting from time to time (as an example).
wow, thats quite a leap! I had no idea there was such a financial gain to be made in protesting against poor environmental behaviour. gee, and here i was thinking the one greenpeace paid employment position in adelaide (a proxy eastern state based job) was excessive… all those boozy lunches in suits and paid trips across all stretches of the country. oh hang on, no that was the mining company employees!
the green groups are obviously such cash cows! maybe that must be why so many people are volunteering their time…zzzz
Pinx – you’re way out of line – are you denying the right of think tanks to astroturf full tilt in the opposite directions to the green NGOs. Do you actually want to try and improve things – come on ! This is war.
It’s interesting that the polarization of the debate leaves no room for conceding that environmentalists have actually contributed to environmental improvements.
What makes the concession so difficult is that environmentalists are so willing to countenance human misery among the least fortunate as acceptable “collateral damage” in their pursuit of environmental benefits which are often notional at best.
You won’t find most Greenpeace donors echoing the sentiments of Gheorghe Lucian, an unemployed miner, who told McAleer in the documentary: “People have no food to eat. They don’t have money for clothes … I know what I need – a job.”
Greenpeace donors have food, money, clothes and jobs, and, paradoxically, Greenpeace most emphatically does *not* advocate these things. Things which its donors enjoy to such excess that they can afford to give money away.
The notion of people with food, money, clothes and jobs donating their surplus to efforts which prevent people from having food, money, clothes and jobs actually angers some people.
There’s anger on both sides of the issues, and for me, personally, I feel much more comfortable being angry on behalf of people who want food, money, clothes and jobs.
Hi Luke, you say,
‘Perhaps like your sojourns in the bush – you see but you don’t observe.’
Today I was at this location,
Google earth 36deg48’38.34”S 147deg39’38.20”E
I saw the following along the way:
Along numerous ridge lines and rocky outcrops, I saw the skeletons of what were once Ash Forests, now decimated by the 2003 fires.
I saw a couple of properties where alternative lifestylers have moved into in recent years and that were severely burnt in 2003, having immense amounts of dogwood, manueca and blackberries over running them.
I saw a new snazzy suspended cable bridge, over the Mitta Mitta that must have cost a fortune to build.
I saw 1 fox.
I saw 2 wild dogs (alive), with a further 5 hanging on a fence (dead), on a farmers property. Saw a number of pretty fresh wild dog scats.
I saw the Mitta is running pretty low for this time of year.
I saw an immense amount of scrubby regrowth following the 2003 fires in many, many areas.
I saw an enormous amount of very active ant nests. Must be thunderstorms coming going by the activity.
I saw Mt. Kosciusko in the distance.
I could see the spreading of willow roots in a part of a river that is normally deeper but as Dartmouth Dam recedes more bankline is being exposed. Thus willow spreads.
I saw a large number of and spreading wombat burrows in an area that usually has more heavy vegetation cover. The 2003 fire destroyed it.
I saw the scars of erosion in many gullies after the fires stripped the vegetation.
I walked in quicksand like silt that lies along sections of the river as a consequence of the 2003 fires.
I saw some gold in my pan.
Oh yes, 1 live snake and two dead snakes.
I saw a purple 1 tonne holden ute parked at Taylors crossing.
Luke, you ask,
‘Do you get scared of spiders and snakes?’
Luke I am a little scared of snakes. That way I retain my respect for them. I am sure there is not much to be scared of in the virtual world though, eh Luke.
So, what did you see today?
And yes I reckon I could teach you a thing or two. Post your name and address, pack a tent and I’ll tell you where to go. ……….. to meet me. What are you after. Life experience or an experience of your life?
Or better still go to these countries where people are being frozen in a life of poverty as the network of affluent and comfortable googlers tell them their ‘human rights’.
I don’t know about Mt. Morgan to tell you the truth but I do know many rivers and streams that must have experienced extreme silting and erosion (read choked with hundreds of tons of alluvial wash) during the gold rush, have now returned to a balanced sediment load.
I think that the public will eventually become fed up with green movements, they will cry Wolf! one time too many.
In the US the word is that they will be deficient in energy supply, the NERC (North American Electric Reliability Council) warn that demand (20%) is outstripping supply (6%), nuclear will have to be dragged out of the mothballs. Of course greens are against any new power and advocate riding pushbikes or putting up windmills.
Greenies will be to blame for the inevitable blackouts.
Gee isn’t that an overly alarmist green apocalypse scenario. Who says they’re getting listened to by the middle classes?
Stewie – nothing much today except CRT but some interesting softwood scrub remnants on the weekend.
What am I after – a comprehensive systems understanding of landscape function.
Jen,
With modern micro size earth moving equipment, great advances in sluice box technology and a greater awareness of our environment there is a large scope, for old alluvial workings here in Victoria to be economically reprocessed and the landscape recontoured to its pre gold rush state.
The trouble is that such mining/rehabilitation operations are only suited to small scale operators and the greenies/environmental bureaucracies along with Native Title rules have made it virtually impossible to get the nod.
People within the flora and fauna departments have gone out of the way to manufacture reports that overstate or understate values within ecosystems that throws a perception of fragility or threat that often does not exist, while ignoring the true state of the environment. The perception of fragility or threat is designed to undermine human activity, like small scale mining potential within a given area.
The way in which the ‘environmentalists’ manufacture reports here, I would expect is the same as what’s happening in third world countries. They ignore the potential of proper management, continually under-mining attempts to do so.
It would seem the human rights/environmentalists would rather they had nothing.
Some of you really are champions at the sweeping generalisation…..perhaps a more thorough reading of the definition of a skeptic might be beneficial.
How about some recognition that there is good and bad on both sides….the green movement and the mining companies.
In my experience there are good and bad green citizens, and good and bad corporate citizens, out there and I have seen both in action first hand…but its not really a surprise is it??
The viewpoint that all environmentalists just what to create problems for mining companies and care not for the plight of local people in developing countries is a trivial generalisation, just like the comment that all mining company executives are rapacious, intent only on the bottom line is also a trivial generalisation.
Obviously standards between companies, countries and small scale operators vary but there is good reason for concern and reform of many practices.
Australia has the luxury of being able to mandate high standards.
http://www.mercury2006.org/portals/31/Mercury2006_conferencedeclaration.pdf
Cyanide use in gold mining operation continues to be an issue of major concern:
http://www.aquinas-university.edu/rapu-rapu/index.html
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s98714.htm
Maybe Russell, but the nett effect is a developmental paralysis as pollies chase the green vote whilst staying the course with the true believers;
“..LABOR has beefed up its advertising blitz against Liberal leader Ted Baillieu in the last week of the state election campaign, this time targeting his green credentials and support for Prime Minister John Howard’s industrial relations laws.
With six days before Saturday’s election, Labor last night released television ads highlighting the Liberals’ plan to abolish a new scheme forcing power companies to buy electricity from renewable sources…”
http://www.theage.com.au/news/vicelection06news/alp-ads-question-libs-energy-policy/2006/11/19/1163871273022.html
“..LABOR has lashed out at the Greens, accusing them of striking a “grubby deal” with the Liberals that could result in the Bracks Government being thrown out of office at next Saturday’s election.
As the deadline passed yesterday for registration of how-to-vote cards, it was revealed that the Greens have refrained from directing preferences to the ALP in several at-risk Labor seats.
In return, the Liberals publicly withdrew plans to thwart the Greens in four inner-city seats the minor party hopes to snatch from Labor…”
http://www.theage.com.au/news/vicelection06news/labor-fury-at-greens-grubby-deal-with-liberals/2006/11/17/1163266781778.html
“…local federal MP Joel Fitzgibbon, a Labor frontbencher and former resources spokesman, went ballistic: “Extreme environmentalists are launching a jihad against the industry in an attempt to close it down, and the community must be told the other side of the story,” he said.
“We must strive to increase the share of electricity produced by renewable technologies, burn our coal more cleanly and efficiently and tighten environmental safeguards. But killing King Coal would be a disaster for the valley.”
The heresy committed in Fitzgibbon’s electorate allowed him to publicly vent feelings about anti-coal campaigns being conducted by conservationists in the name of fighting greenhouse gas emissions. There is trepidation in the ranks of Kim Beazley’s supporters about the ALP being swept along in the emotional surge of anti-coal feeling.
Endorsed federal Labor candidate and potential ALP leader Bill Shorten and Victorian state Labor candidate Evan Thornley both suffered collateral damage this week because of their links with the GetUp campaign. As the national secretary of the Australian Workers Union, Shorten was defending the pay and conditions of the unsung heroes of the Melbourne Cup, the jockeys, but at the same time GetUp, of which he and Thornley are board members, was calling for an end to the coal industry and a “just transition”. Both rapidly distanced themselves from any suggestion they supported the closure of the coal industry.
Beazley also made it clear yesterday that the future of Australia’s baseload electricity power would come from coal and that he was backing the coal industry: a clean coal industry….”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20876,20730837-17301,00.html
The main opinionated mistake I see Schiller is the generalisation that a person who cares about the environment only cares about the environment or values it above people. Many/most environmentalists have realised the importance (in terms of ethics/decency and effective outcomes) to address social and environmental issues together. It is not uncommonly acknowledged within informed/scientific environmental and development circles that environmentalism can be an elitist stance.
The other opinionated mistake generalises that a person who cares about equality and human rights is a socialist commie. And so on. Very old school, unaware and boxed-in thinking.
You could ask in return, do all miners/businesspeople only care for themselves or profits? I would answer no, definitely not. However businesses exist to make money. Corporations are required to put the profit mandate above all other considerations.
I keep saying there are fundamentalists in every camp. It’s not precise or helpful to paint every object with the same brush.
Pinxii, a good economy is second to none in improving social issues – as the russians say, “when poverty walks through the door love flies out the window”.
You are mixing facts with fundamentals.
“Equality” is a socialist untruth and requires that external control is necessary to ensure that everybody starts and finishes the race at the same time.
Not enough – Indian economy has done very well in last few years. Gap between rich and poor bad as ever. Trickle down is a myth. And as we have discussed before absolute poverty is the pits but in western society unbridled prosperity has not brought happiness with it.
The India analogy is rubbish – their socialist styled centrally planned economy failed to reduce poverty prompting some reforms.
But but but .. .. always exceptions for the capitalists.
Rog what utter crap – it’s unfettered chaotic free market. You should love it. Sink or swim. A lot sink – enjoy.
My brother emailed some photos of his nephew’s nearly restored street machine. I thought I recognised the red brick walls in the background so I asked on the phone; it was part of the mill where I started work fifty years ago. My brother said that complex now has terminal cancer but it initiated a quick discussion on how industry supports or handicaps a small community, then I recalled the acid plant that was built nearby after I left. My apprentice mate ended up working there before it was finally shut down. I wondered if it affected my old place as well as the town and everybody in it. Our town was all about heavy industry back then.
We made acid from mine tailings collected by rail from afar. This stuff had been dumped everywhere in the bad old days. Most mines generally left arsenic in abundance and lead besides massive quantities of sulphides. The acid plant waste was regularly barged out to sea, only about 2 km if we had bad weather in Bass Strait. Up the coast we had another plant that dumped its waste via a pipeline into their tiny river estuary for decades. Their pigment sludge formed a slick far out to sea that looped past our place in a stiff easterly. My other tech school mate was the local marine board diver.
We have all had plenty of time to think about remote shareholders. My intention was only to congratulate first pinxi then rog on a decent debate here but I started wondering what they really know about mining and supposed benefits to local inhabitants. Note too I’m discussing impacts on some well developed communities in this country not some third world wilderness.
*unfettered chaotic free market* aka communist led govt.
in your googley machine type in “west bengal” and “communism” and sit back and get educated. You could also type in Czech republic and look up how their economy is going and ask yourself “but are they really happy?”
Clearly you’re not happy Rog in your nasty little right wing existence. Obviously very small business is getting you down. Clearly Rog your free market theories and rambling commo/pink nonsense don’t add up in the slightest. Go pot some plants.
Clearly your inability to respond with anything of substance has reduced you to childish insults and taunts – not setting much of an example eh?
I fell off the chair laughing. The great exponent of taunts himself, the “ram raider”, Mr One Liner is actually concerned ! Rog we’ve decided to take a leaf out of your book and not respond to your agenda.
As I mentioned in an above post
“People within the flora and fauna departments have gone out of the way to manufacture reports that overstate or understate values within ecosystems that throws a perception of fragility or threat that often does not exist, while ignoring the true state of the environment.”
This situation not only has denied legitimate human activity of various kinds in this country but it has a trickle down effect into other areas of management, causing potentially serious complications to protocol and focus. Essentially, our intellectual database is being distorted for political purposes.
An example is the Sooty Owl (Tyto tenebricosa) and Lesser Sooty Owl (Tyto Punctata).
The sooty owl and lesser sooty owl are listed, separate species and as an endangered species. Which I think is rubbish.
I have, over the years, heard sooty owls all over the mountains here in Victoria, from the Dandenongs to Walhalla to Licola to Dargo to upper tambo river regions. Their call is quite distinct in the night but of course due to the rugged locations in which they are often found, it is impossible to document their populations exactly and it is for this reason, that the ‘fundamentalists’ within buearacracies, can pull the wool over the publics eyes and call them ‘endangered’. Of course, they are also nocturnal and launch/fly silently, adding further to their ‘elusiveness’.
The sooty owl and the lesser sooty owl are seen as ‘cousins’ in our management reports. However, a recent book by David Hollands, titled, ‘Owls, Journey around the World’, a renowned owl expert states the following:
“Footnote 2004: Taxonomy is forever changing our concept of species, creating two where we had believed there was only one and merging what we had thought to be two back into one. Now it is happening to the Lesser Sooty Owl and, after 24 years as a distinct species, the scientists are now telling us that their DNA studies show that the Sooty and Lesser Sooty Owls are, after all, a single one. ……….”
So in fact, they are the same species but by fragmenting the intellectual database, as our bureaucratic fundamentalists have done, numbers can be more easily ‘tweaked’, through limiting the perception of population size/numbers, with more emphasis able to be put on an ‘endangered’ species listing.
While this information can then be used to discriminate against legitimate human activity and inappropriately change land tenures, the trickle down effect, that dements more serious management areas is concerning. A case in point is wildfire fuel management.
Under the management plans of the Sooty Owl in Victoria, all emphasis under “Intended management action”, falls on, how I would phrase, a land grab. Control of tenure using false ‘science’.
“Ensure that the SOMA selection criteria will result in an appropriate distribution of sites
across conservation reserves and state forest, with preference given to the protection of
suitable habitat within the conservation reserves.”
This is typical speak. It presents the limit of quality and the the extent of quantity.
However, the greatest threat to this species is feral wildfire. No detailed focus/highlighting of managing wildfire threats, in the ‘Intended management action’ plans, even though further back in the document a brief mention:
“This probable population decline has left the Sooty Owl more susceptible to catastrophic events (SAC1991), such as extensive wildfire.”
How then, do the fire managers cope with this type of perception, ie endangered species, when planning fuel reduction in these areas? Especially, ‘ecological’ burns where this ‘endangered’ species is said to exist, ‘officially’ exist that is. The result is paranoid fire managers.
In the Sooty Owl plans, when it comes to mining though, there is more detail, like this,
“………mining, etc.) will be assessed in line with the major conservation objective of protecting 500
SOMAs across the Victorian range of the Sooty Owl.”
Personally, of further interest, is that the leading senior flora and fauna scientist in DSE ‘managing’ this owl, was president of an ‘environmental group’ back in 1989, that made a significant contribution to the banning of eductor gold dredging (earlier posting on this page).
His wife was a teacher (his teacher) of ecology for TAFE and used that book we discussed earlier Luke, ‘Recher, H.F., Lunney, D. & Dunn, I. (1986) A Natural Legacy. Ecology in Australia.
Second Edition. Pergamon Press, Sydney.’ …which had such quotes within:
‘The main effects of such a warming trend would be an increase in cloud cover and a melting of the polar ice caps. If the polar ice caps melted, the oceans would rise by nearly 100 metres and flood most of the world’s major cities.’
This book is full of such anomalies. Sorry Luke, ‘mistakes’ as you would put it.
Hmmm.
Furthermore, at virtually the same time of this books release, 1979, the Sooty Owl and Lesser Sooty Owl were ‘officially’ declared a separate species (1982.)
Why is that worth mentioning?
In fact, a number of species were ‘reclassified’ during this period. Later, in the late 1980’s period, many of these ‘reclassified’ species were in turn given an endangered status. Just like our owl and with the same method of ‘science’ behind it.
And still furthermore, many of those reclassified species have similar parameters when it comes to population counts. That is, it’s impossible, due to in-situ environmental constraints of rugged landscape or nocturnal habit. Hmmm. Self fulfilling prophecies in the making or what?
As a matter of interest Joan Kirner was opposition conservation minister at this time of reclassification. And we know that Joan was to later ‘steal’ the premiership of the ALP and the State of Victoria from John Cain and then later be swept into power by the green vote. Hmmmm.
So Luke is this behaviour what you refer to as
“Australia has the luxury of being able to mandate high standards.”
I would like to post some more ‘behind the scenes’ scientific tweaking that has gone on. Stuff that is of quite a serious nature. We will save this though, until a time that we can be assured that the full force of the law and media attention is applied.
Oh dear, and all I wanted to be was a simple prospector, who didn’t need the trappings of life to any great extent and who loves and cares for the bush. This is war you say Luke……….hmmmmm, again.
It’s not war Luke. It’s a giant con.
And Luke, I read your links to mercury and cyanide. Doesn’t look good on the surface of it but what’s your point exactly?
I don’t think your generalizing from it but what’s the solution? That’s if it is as bad as those references indicate. And yes I am a skeptic, I feel for good reason.
Could somebody explain to me how to put links to internet pages on a posting?
Stewie if you put
http://www.abc.net.au/news
the post will automatically make it a link.
However more than 2 links and the blog software grabs it until Jen releases it.
If you have more than 2 links take the http:// bit off – but that means it will not appear as a link.
Stewie – I’m not anti-mining but I’m pointing out that there are some very poor practices with mining – use of mercury and cyanide are internationally infamous as issues. So the industry is far from squeaky clean. The relatively recent Romanian cyanide from tailings dam leak – Esmeralda is another classic example.
Mt Morgan was simply a test to see if you guys knew anything. Millions have been spent to rectify the problem of acid leakage from the old mine. It’s a well acknowledged problem. I was surprised I didn’t get inundated with information. Got zippo back.
The front piece for this post makes one think that the “poor old mining industry” is totally 100% perfect environmentally speaking. It’s totally unbalanced as Russell has pointed out too – hence Pinxi and I taking pot shots.
And as for “A Natural Legacy. Ecology in Australia.” I say again – I am not endorsing the reference execept to say it’s where Specht has his work published. There was also another reference below. Perhaps he should have thought twice about publishing in there ! I’ll ask him sometime.
Stewie; some of us actually know a bit about mining, tailings, flotation oils etc. When Luke mentions the defunct Mt Morgan in QLD, I think about their plant and control gear that was we deployed at another location after salvage. It’s a small world in big mining circles, where were you?
Gavin. You get a WTF.
I am a small scale prospector. Read more sloooowly so you understand a little better what you read.
Have I said something you don’t agree with? What is it then Gavin? C’mon boy. Don’t be shy now.
Louis,
I have confirmed with a local that the oil did use to seep out at various points around Lakes Entrance and Metung, to name two and dissappear into the sand.
A U.S. company drilled on it in the 60’s but was not interested in it. My friend suspects the oil in this area only goes as deep as the first tertiary layer.
He said the oil, along with methane and thermal activity was found in conjunction with the peat beds of this area.
He used to go fishing down there 40 years ago and said they would ignite the methane which would ignite the oil. They used this for light and warmth. He suspects the Aborigines used to do the same.
I got this information during a quick chat but will be seeing him in person shortly and ask more as I’m interested myself. As a matter of interest thing.
And Luke. Thanks for the instruction on linking.
Stewie: I worked in the practical clean up of Victoria industry and did some very hard yards out on the pavement for the clean up of politics and Government agencies over environment policies.
But as a former amateur fossicker, river fisherman and would be if I had the talent, wilderness photographer, I think your arguments about owls stuffing up private gold mining for a handful of enterprising individuals are way out of place here and anywhere else with issues like water quality and fishing access at stake for a wider public consideration.
The rights of shareholders however…that’s another yarn.
Stewie: Don’t be angry because there are two sides on all rivers. Some of us worked also in the old MMBW at critical times too. Governments must respond to greater metropolitan demands now.
Mates in Victoria wrote books on amateur prospecting during my time there. Many regulations existed then; some were simply a hangover from the wild colonial days when all gold discoveries were encouraged. I can say from experience the role of amateurs has no place in overall government directions now, regarding mining, environment management in either the high country or the low country in your state.
The best we can do as amateurs with out a degree is form lobby groups. Note too Stewie: individuals have no say in risk management strategies these days unless you sit on the right hand of a minister.
Hey Gavin,
Your Para 1:
Oh really. How impressive but what do you mean exactly. Repeat, exactly.
“former amateur fossicker” are you.
What couldn’t you find enough of the yellow stuff Gavin and do you think I am an amateur? Whatever you reckon my friend.
What method of prospecting did use and where?
What do you make of my above posts on eductor dredging and mercury/lead removal from waterways?
“I think your arguments about owls stuffing up private gold mining for a handful of enterprising individuals”
I was referring more to potential fraud having a trickle down effect to other management issues like wildfire management. Read even more slooowly. Now what do you think?
“issues like water quality and fishing access”
What water issues do you exactly mean Gavin and where’s the issue with fishing access. By the way I can cast a pretty mean spinner myself so I suppose that makes me a ‘river fisherman’ to, eh. A stakeholder if you like to put it so broadly.
para 4 gets a WT flying F.
“Mates in Victoria wrote books on amateur prospecting.”
Oh, how impressive. Don’t read many books on the subject much anymore myself. After a while it comes down to hard yards, access and sampling, sampling, sampling. Besides I find the historic stuff more enlightening for my ventures.
“the role of amateurs has no place in overall government directions”
But aren’t they stakeholders, these amateurs? What’s an amateur to you Gavin?
“The best we can do as amateurs with out a degree is form lobby groups”
So now it’s ‘we’ amateurs. From former amateur to we(e) amateur.
We have formed lobby groups (25 years ago and 15 years ago).
The community consultation process is often another scam.
“unless you sit on the right hand of a minister.” Stay tuned my friend.
Do you think I am angry Gavin? Water off a ducks back. Quack, quack.
Good to hear you worked for the MMBW at a critical time too. Maybe that explains your disposition for a lazy reading style.
Here comes a big, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Congratulations.
Oh, by the way Gavin, quoting your good self from a previous post.
“Mark my words; some environmental assets will have to be defended with guns…”
You didn’t answer my question then.
By whom? What about answering it now. Careful though. Nice.
Shouldn’t you be going to the police with such information being the noble upstanding citizen you are?
Or perhaps with an attitude like that maybe you’re the angry one. Were you one of those G20 protestors perhaps? Now if that’s the caliber of person you refer to as a defender of our environment, well look here buddy …………..
Stewie; my message is simple, water in streams around your area over time has become more precious than a few small pieces of gold.
What is simple Gavin, is that you enjoy maitaining an adversarial situation, regardless of fact. Can you answer any of these questions because you see, I claim that ways in which I can extract payable gold, have no effect on water quality at all.
Furthermore, I can, given certain situations extract gold and provide significant benefits to the environment. Sometimes profoundly beneficial.
How does eductor gold dredging effect water quality?
If EGD’s remove metallic mercury and lead sinkers from a waterway, would this be beneficial to water quality?
Do you regard a 1-2 man operation, producing 1-3 ounces of gold per week a few pieces of gold?
Do you regard a potential small, short term increase in suspended sediment worth it, if 100’s of kilometres of riparian zones can be repaired of its gold rush scarring?
What could a prospector, with a bit of education or direction, record as far as ecosystem data, while in remote country?
What would be the benefit to water quality and ecosystem function if this riparian repair work were achieved?
What is the effect now on water quality and ecosystem function of the old alluvial diggings along mountain streams?
How do the huge increases in suspended sediment during a flood in a mountain stream, effect the water quality of water in storage dams downstream?
What is the comparison of increased sediment load from a small scale mining operation compared to a normal, naturally occurring flood?
What is the effect on ‘water quality’ that is caused by extracting those few pieces of gold you are talking about?
Are you trying to rely on an ignorant type of stereo typing, semantics and rhetoric to make yourself look like the honest, environmentally concerned expert?
Do you think that I think that all forms of mining are kosher?
What’s the bet you don’t answer these questions? A few pieces of gold perhaps ?
rog who hid sugar coated mercury sinkers in your throat lozenge tin? Or did you waterproof seal your head so that nothing can sink in?
I said a common “opinionated mistake generalises that a person who cares about equality and human rights is a socialist commie” and you replied with an opinionated mistake and that exactsame generalisation!
“Equality” is of OPPORTUNITY, not a commie plot to divide all assets into perfectly equal shares. I reckon you try real hard to misunderstand. Think ‘fair crack of the whip’ or ‘fair go’ if it makes it easier for you.
“a good economy is second to none” – what are you trying to say? No-body argued against good economies. Your box brownie snapshots of the world are missing important perspective. Get a wider angle lense.
we’re all for a healthy economy on this blog. HOWEVER you’re getting plenty of argument that a robust economy cannot arise from 3rd or 2nd world shambles through rapid market liberalisation alone. That’s been shown in many cases to deepen poverty and make for weak economies. The Trickle Down myth has been proven just that. So has the Stages of development approach because the 1st world economies developed within framework conditions and longer time periods that simply aren’t there today for developing nations.
You need basic human rights (education, food, gender rights) and institutions (private property rights, independent executive, fair judicial system etc) and civil participation and independent media. Those ingredients can strengthen an economy. The ‘invisible hand’ ideal of the efficient marketplace arose in circumstances very different to today, with more evenly matched market players. It’s a paradigm that has been abused for concentrated powers and stretched to breaking point and break it’s now doing, hence the globally co-ordinated activism, panopticon, the rise of voice for the majority of impoverished world citizens, and the rise in CSR. You’re a breed that’s going extinct, fighting change and failing to recognise how your own beliefs don’t fit the ‘facts’.
You want liberties, but not for all. Your recent comments show that you don’t give a sh.t about basic minimum human rights for people in deep poverty. Self-interest rules your political outlook. You’re not interested in the environmental or social science, only your own tiny little ME ME ME FIRST outlook on life. Keep sucking on those mercury lozenges rog. The nursing home carers can’t wait to pull a set of false teeth randomly from a sanitised bucket for you, blend your meat, veg and dessert all into one grey glob and leave you staring at a yellowed wall all day long. See how far your individualistic self-centred free market idealogies get you there.
Stewie poses this question again “How does eductor gold dredging effect water quality? But he also said it was mixed up with his owls previously. It’s been my view all the time here that a personal issue involving his access to public streams for the sole purposes of gold dredging got mixed up with species conservation but only in his mind.
One problem with small mining operations is the continued cost of process monitoring and prevention of obnoxious events. From experience large scale works have quality control built in and daily records. Expertise is generally available within and without but is hardly ever concentrated in one individual.
My own observation of small mining or sub leases is they were often pretty rough places.
Readers interested in stream water quality issues would benefit from reading the environment reports of Melbourne Water, the key player in the region.
Stewie: I’m the last person you have to convince that your river dredging operations will improve the Victorian environment, but bits of lead or gold recovered seem hardly worthwhile in terms of fish or owls.
IMHO mercury should be left undisturbed. I suspect there is no one else clamoring for its recovery at this stage. I had considerable practical experience working with mercury in industry on a daily basis. I for one don’t see it as a great threat to wildlife or people in your gold areas when left alone.
Stewie; when I said “some environmental assets will have to be defended with guns” in a previous thread it was a general statement about all poaching of wild stock based primarily on the old idea of using game keepers and extended to modern issues like patrolling oceans.
Traffic in wildlife where ever it occurs without license must at least be checked. Public pressure these days could see a return to us having armed officers patrolling quite a few places. I can easily recall where various incidents have occurred involving either federal or state police. Customs operations at places of entry are probably not enough to quell illegal trade. Minding the source is another way of stopping population decline.
Stewie poses this question again “How does eductor gold dredging effect water quality? But he also said it was mixed up with his owls previously. It’s been my view all the time here that a personal issue involving his access to public streams for the sole purposes of gold dredging got mixed up with species conservation but only in his mind.
One problem with small mining operations is the continued cost of process monitoring and prevention of obnoxious events. From experience large scale works have quality control built in and daily records. Expertise is generally available within and without but is hardly ever concentrated in one individual.
My own observation of small mining or sub leases is they were often pretty rough places.
Readers interested in stream water quality issues would benefit from reading the environment reports of Melbourne Water, the key player in the region.
Stewie: I’m the last person you have to convince that your river dredging operations will improve the Victorian environment, but bits of lead or gold recovered seem hardly worthwhile in terms of fish or owls.
IMHO mercury should be left undisturbed. I suspect there is no one else clamoring for its recovery at this stage. I had considerable practical experience working with mercury in industry on a daily basis. I for one don’t see it as a great threat to wildlife or people in your gold areas when left alone.
Stewie; when I said “some environmental assets will have to be defended with guns” in a previous thread it was a general statement about all poaching of wild stock based primarily on the old idea of using game keepers and extended to modern issues like patrolling oceans.
Traffic in wildlife where ever it occurs without license must at least be checked. Public pressure these days could see a return to us having armed officers patrolling quite a few places. I can easily recall where various incidents have occurred involving either federal or state police. Customs operations at places of entry are probably not enough to quell illegal trade. Minding the source is another way of stopping population decline.
Pinxii, you need to exercise some personal restraint. I dont hear “argument’ I hear unreasoned nonsense.
Liberty is equality before the law not to material possessions. Only a totalitarian govt can ensure equality of material possessions and only at the loss of personal freedom and liberty.
This has been demonstrated again and again yet you deny the reality.
To clarify, equality means that you all have an equal chance before the law, not an equal chance at an individuals’ material goods. Once you have mandated equality to material goods you have denied individuals’ rights before the law as such rights have been abrogated in favour of the “common good” (which remains an ill defined concept).
For instance during the Russian Revolution the Lenin’s Decree on Land was passed by the peasants mandating that all private property be seized without compensation. This was a backward step as all property then became owned by the State leaving the people as tenants without equity. In effect in one fell swoop the State took all property without compensation and left the peasants in exactly the same position without any rights or assets.
Who would recommend this action today?
Of course she’s not suggesting mass seizure of properties.
Rog you have copped a massive philosophical broadside which has comprehensively illustrated the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of your one dimensional myopic position. And all you can do is stand around with pants around your ankles waving your arms about Lenin and then usual tired commie clap-trap. Says it all.
Gavin,
I did not tie in owl issues with eductor gold dredging issues. You are confused. (Deliberate or otherwise.)
I am indicating to you that our flora and fauna, intellectual database is being distorted for political purposes and as of a consequence other very serious management issues, like wildfire fuel management is being hobbled or glossed over.
In simple terms those employed to ‘manage’ our environment are prepared to damage it for personal political ambitions.
How does that compare to my ‘personal’ ambition to find a few pieces of gold?
Why did you try to hobble and gloss over my intent and was your post above delivered 3 times as a further attempt to do the same?
In reference to your second para:
‘and prevention of obnoxious events’
Look at the way in which the G20 protestors were handled on the weekend to get a clue as to why certain obnoxious events re small scale miners (which are rare), weren’t managed more precisely as they should be. The authorities seem to turn a blind eye, at the time and then come back at a later stage, after the event, and bring in harsh rules, penalties or a string of consultancy regimes. In EGD’s case they completely banned it.
Back in 1983 the Prospectors and Miners of Victoria approached government, of their own accord, to present a ‘Code of Practice’ for EGDing which included ‘policing’ of operators. And with the group they could have strung together, people would have been brought into order very quickly indeed.
And of course Gavin, EGDing and its accommodation requirements do not require substantial roading, flotation tanks, heavy earth moving equipment , buildings, etc., so when the transient dredge operator moves on to his/her next location, the bush very quickly obliterates any signs of his presence.
Can you name one (just one) location where signs of previous EGDing activities have taken place? Lets not forget there were literally many hundreds of operations that took place in the 1980’s.
Speaking of obnoxious events.
Why did the authorities (1988) present photos of scars left by historic bucket dredging sites and claim this to be EGDing sites?
Why, in the State of the Environment 1988 was there a photo of a 20+ ton bucket dredge with the caption “a typical eductor gold dredge” under it? An innocent mistake I suppose you would say. Yeh, right.
You say,
‘My own observation of small mining or sub leases is they were often pretty rough places.’
A mere smear by you Gavin. That’s not my experience, however, a job such as EGDing does not entail you need to ‘dress to impress’. The bush can be a very hostile, uncomfortable and dangerous place and you tend towards a practical attitude. However, for public relations perception reasons, some of the small scale miners could clean up their act a bit I suppose. I personally don’t have a problem as I take pride in my clean camp, leaving no rubbish and am polite (while guarded) to all. I’d even throw the billy on for someone like yourself Gavin. This would give me sometime to educate you. And we’d start with reading lessons. Reading lessons of literature or of the bush.
You say,
‘Readers interested in stream water quality issues’, etc.
Here is a quote from the submission put forward by the Rural Water Corporation (7/5/93) to the Parl. Inquiry to EGDing. I have many like it.
“The Corporation has no clear evidence that past eductor dredging in Victoria has created problems of stream stability and water quality that are of such a magnitude as to warrant its complete ban.”
This type of summary of ‘no real threat’ was echoed in many official reports, including the ‘working group’ set up by Kirner herself. She, by the way, disbanded this group when she saw their exploration of the issue was not matching her ignorance.
The only group of people who supported people like Joan (disaster) Kirner were the new breed of academic ecologists. That is, the flora and fauna ‘experts’ who had recently been employed via the Natural Resource Management course at TAFE colleges, which her government set-up. Refer my comments further up the post as to quality of official (mandatory) reference material students relied on. (read were forced to use. My God, I can’t get over the reference in that book of a 100 metre sea rise from polar caps melting.)
You say,
‘mercury should be left undisturbed’ and ‘I for one don’t see it as a great threat to wildlife or people’
How little you really know, which we can extrapolate to how little you really care.
For starters, the rivers in which you often find large mercury deposits, are of a type where the entire sedimentary bed can slide along its bedrock base in times of flood. Mass disturbance. Often the bed can be picked up and flung down stream rock by rock. Surely a man of your experience has stood on a river bank and heard the rocks/boulders clicking together as they make there way down stream in a serious flood. Or maybe the leaches during such a time are to much for you and you avoid the environment when it becomes ugly. Not me my friend. I’ve been out there in all weather and know the environment is no where near as ‘fragile’ as someone like you would try to impress.
EGD operators brought many, many kilos of mercury and lead to the Inquiry. One bloke working at the junction of Gaffneys Ck and the Goulbourn River pulled a few kilos of mercury in one mornings work.
The DSE had an article in the Herald newspaper in 1983 stating they were considering banning trout fishing in Lake Eildon due to extraordinarily high levels of mercury in the trout.
There are now warning signs around the Lake I believe, warning of potential mercury poisoning from fish consumption.
But I see you don’t care about that.
I know EGDing cannot remove all the metallic mercury but mercury does deposit itself next to gold and every little bit helps.
You actually said this in your post referring to the use of guns,
‘Mark my words; some environmental assets will have to be defended with guns in the same way little old mines were.
Hey all mining is suddenly a form of poaching!’
And now you have said this,
‘Stewie; when I said “some environmental assets will have to be defended with guns” in a previous thread it was a general statement about all poaching of wild stock based primarily on the old idea of using game keepers and extended to modern issues like patrolling oceans.’
Hmmm.
Oh, and the reason you will never become a ‘talented’ wildlife photographer is because you don’t know what you see or what you are dealing with.
Now, Gavin. Don’t waste my time anymore. I’ve got work to catch up on because of you.
Cheers.
As a general comment relevant to this posts theme ‘Mine your own buisness’, eductor gold dredges are an excellent choice for extracting alluvial gold and third world countries, who have the right geological settings and should jump at the opportunity in employing such means. Low capital costs, high portability, simple operating parameters, environmentally sustainable methodology and more, makes it an excellent choice of improving an individual’s economic circumstance. Must be managed right though.
Australia is the only country in the world where it has been banned.
And some trivia.
Many EGD operators, once having removed stream bed sediments, have found the names life details and messages of gold rush prospectors, scratched into the bedrock below it.
Stewie may wish to educate us on the reasons why eductor dredging is also banned in other states like QLD.
As I said it’s not me that he has to convince.
You tell me Gavin, why? After all you claim this,
‘I worked in the practical clean up of Victoria industry’
*Of course she’s not suggesting mass seizure of properties.*
and where did I say that she did?
Luke, you need to stop putting words into others mouths.
Abuse is not the same as a philosophical broadside, but why would I expect you to be able to discriminate?.
rog you have a long history of ignoring evidence and going out of your way to misunderstand or misinterpret. You should do a course in logical reasoning, but then you’d be forced to challenge your inductive and unreasonable arguments.
You stay in your vacuous hovel or thick-heeded cyclops resistence to questions and evidence. Stick to your mindless one liners and defensiveness. I couldn’t be less interested and nothing could be a bigger waste of time than trying to reason with you.
been reading this blog for a while now and I’ve got to say that Rog – you are on your own.
Where does this miserable Hobbsian world view come from? Your comments are marked by the absence of a philosophy unless of course ‘Winner take all, the devil the hindmost’ can constitute a philosophy. Well done Pinxi.
Stewie – I know the part of the world you are in and I have been following your comments with interest. In the early seventies a group of mates and I took out miners rights and built shacks for weekend debaucheries out of Warbuton at Reefton. Never found gold, but then we never looked. Had too much fun wrecking the place!
We eventually crossed the line of decency and had our plans for a third storey extension knocked on the head by the local ranger who had been very tolerant till then. We torched the place and never went back. I say this only to illustrate how knobs like us (teenagers) abused the system in a very cavalier way and I do know my mates brother got into EDG in the mid eighties and was a complete and utter vandal…..so you know…..we need rules and regs, but you make your points well.
Very interested in your comments on fire regimes too and good luck with the prospecting. Sounds fantastic and I’d love to give up what I’m doing now and get into it.
Hello, Gavin.
Pinxii, you continue to prove me right.
Who is Hobbs varp, doesnt he make toasters and kettles?
varp; were you staying by the Box Hill Tech annex at Reefton? Lots of big er little boys had some wild times there. Think the gold was long gone hey.
The ducks got it all stewie.
Go and see a doctor Gavin or alternatively get your medicine upgraded.
And take your alter ego. He’s obviously a sick man too.
Why don’t you stick to the facts or answer questions Gavin? Is that because you have no answers?
I bet you beleive in human induced global warming.
So what if I do stew?
don’t you believe in AGW Stewie? Don’t disappoint me here. Just when I was thinking you may be alright in a cautious, qualified kind of way….. if you wind up deluding yourself like most of the other flat earthers that inhabit this space then consider your self dumped!
Hi Gavin – the Box Hill Tech annexe was just down the way. We cleared an old logging road called Big Bills track for about one k then staked out our claim. It was brilliant for a couple of years then word got out and the place spiralled out of control with too many hangers-on. We
We got friendly with Ted Minifie and his clan who were still mining and timber felling the area. Wonderful people and they were still pulling a quid from the gold. The Reefton Spur Mine (AAA?) was operating and was fascinating to watch. Shame our claim degenerated the way it did, but the legacy of those days was a deep respect for those who carve out a life from the bush.
I enjoy your posts BTW!
yeah Gavin, interesting that despite stewie’s noble claims on compromising etc, he’s quick to box you and dismiss you by ‘type’ eg an ‘AGW believer’ type. Stewie is a stick in the mud but you know better than to heed such put downs. Ever wary of anyone who thinks they have a monopoly on the ‘facts’.
Who here would be capable of putting their obstinacy and egos aside to reach a genuine compromise with people with different outlooks and priorities to theirs? Such agreements require some degree of mutual trust.
(rogaganda will be ignored)
Hey varp/gavin you should check for consistency if you are going to make it up as you go along.
Varp post 1 says,
Never found gold, but then we never looked.
Varp post 2 says,
‘……..then staked out our claim. It was brilliant for a couple of years then word got out…….’
Which is it then, did you find gold or not?
And to prove your ‘credentials’, was it alluvial or reef mining? And what methods did you use? And tell me something unique about the site you worked?
Then you say this,
‘…….consider your self dumped.’
You never had me. But you’re a little amusing.
About the AGW comment Pinxi, found it difficult to represent my tongue in my cheek, however I note you lack critical comment of Gavin’s ability to duck all questions.
So who has the fragile ego then?
And you say,
‘Stewie is a stick in the mud…’
Now Pinxi, baby girl, I don’t know where you are in Australia but I reckon there’s a chance you heard me laugh when I read that.
Fk my stomach hurts. Just can’t stop laughing.
Varp: I was tempted by a young telecom guy who had been to Box Hill camp previously. He took a canoe and so did some others. That’s where the ducks came in. Local tipped us off about nuggets in the crop. Don’t bother with dredging, just eat more duck. I won’t go into wise china men hey.
I wont forget the Upper Yarra terrain as the guys at camp had some extra training on their schedule, out over the edge 80 feet up on the end of a rope looking down er way down. Later we managed a couple of hundred feet on another face above the road. Tall skinny blokes are top heavy with climbing gear and a stack hat on. There is always a first time and a probably a last time I thought then.
I had a contact in town who lived free in a penthouse but worked as a minder/cleaner for management. He and several mates had lots of claims they shared on weekends but they mainly worked for gems. He had a good collection of opal, star sapphires etc and a handful of mixed pale and dark diamonds from the north.
One day a huge fellow showed me a bag full as I looked at his brand new slr camera up for sale in the AGE. This chap offered me a choice, his cameras or his exploration shares.
I took his Minolta and avoided a mortgage on our family home and walked away from a ground floor stake in Agyle knowing full well what I’d just done.
Previously, my fossicking mate had tipped me off; nobody in Australia could properly cut the darned hard things. Next week those penny dread fulls went up over two dollars. About a month later DeBeers turned their backs. The shares went up again about ten years later
Come on Gavin. Answer a few of the questions I raised approx 20 posts back.
Let’s here the world according to Garp.
stewie, tell my baby ears of some of these noble compromises you’ve reached and what they achieved.
Seeing you know everything, I’m content to believe everything you say. I’ll even swallow all of your typecasting. Answer his q’s gavin you ole bugga! Waaaa, waaaa. Oh excuse me, my nappy needed changing.
I must declare that in my entire life, I’ve never voted for the greens. I think you & Motty & rog together have just persuaded me to do so at the next opportunity. I might even sell some property and donate the proceeds.
So you would vote Greens just because our ‘relationship’ is going thru a bit of a rough patch? Oh dear, dear, dear.
How much for your property?
I think Stewie and I have bonded – we gave each other a good bludgeoning but now we’re cool. I think you actually like us Stewie. Where else can you have a relatively clean stoush with people of totally opposing value systems. I’m feeling good coz I just pooned Rog like a noob on another thread. Got him right in the value system.. .. that’ll teach him for messing with pros.
Pinxi: A word or two about resistance. Soon after the Korean war began I was inducted into a very young anti communist army. We built forts and weapons, set up sub groups and trained leaders in other districts. We also stayed up late and did night patrols. One evening after the younger one went to bed uncle’s old shingle covered barn and stables caught alight then burnt down.
I as guest had a lot of explaining to do about slow burning oil lamp experiments. Uncle also fell over a series of hidden trip wires as he stumbled around in the after glow with his stirrup pump and buckets trying to save grandfathers old harness and a few bales of hay. Later on headmasters stepped in and confiscated pocket weapons at various schools.
Some in that group later became key local elements under Santamaria DLP NCC the Cardinal. etc but by then I was watching from the far side in big smoke their big attack on the left around trades hall.
Every now and then I joined in with the marching boys at the mill where I worked. We had our own big banner in town for national industry campaigns. One of Laurie’s greatest fans cried when I left. Simply we were more often up the road than in.
Pinxi thanks but there is no one on this blog more familiar with lets say some sad cases or a great load of tired old brain washing rhetoric
Stewie – apologies for the confusion. We staked out an acre with white posts on the corners then pulled down an old shed from Cambarville up the road and built a one room shack with a pick in the corner and a pan hanging on a nail on the wall. That was the full extent of our gold mining tools and they never saw the light of day again. We were 16 year old proto-hippies listening to the Doors and reading ‘Lord of the Rings’ having a ball trashing the place, but learning how to grow radishes, build, fish and explore……knew diddly about prospecting and know diddly now.
I did go to a seminar on prospecting in the late eighties with a view to getting into it, but the consensus was I’d only be pulling wages for buggering the bush, so I passed it up.
Still, I find the fossicking bug very appealing. Maybe one day….
Gavin – my old man got the inside running on Poseidon in the sixties from a neighbour that was in the know. He passed on it. Sometimes if I want to wind him up……