The Icelandic Fisheries Ministry has declared that Iceland will resume commercial whaling with a catch of 30 minke whales and 9 Fin whales. George McCallum explains the implications both nationally and internationally:
“Iceland will become only the second country to openly conduct commercial whaling under International Whaling Commission (IWC) objection and this may very well lead to further nations following suit.
Obviously, Iceland may very well wish to open up international trade in the whale products obtained, but it remains to be seen if they will be able to achieve this. Iceland currently exports small amounts of whale meat to the Faroe Islands ( The Faroe islands are a self-governing region of Denmark). The Danish Foreign Ministry wrote in 2003 that the “CITES Convention does not apply to the Faroes for the time being.”
Surfacing Minke whale. One of the two species Iceland will begin to commercially hunt. For wildlife photographs visit www.whalephoto.com.Iceland’s whaling commissioner Stefan Asmundsson also stated that “There is free trade within that area and whale products are simply one item therein.”
The Fisheries ministry also noted ” Any international trade in Icelandic whale products will be conducted in accordance with Iceland’s obligations under international law.”
The decision is certain to raise the hackles of anti-whaling countries and anti-whaling NGO’s, indeed, the first reactions to the decision have already been publicised on anti whaling NGO websites.
One such comment from Greenpeace states:
“Iceland has no market for whale meat, but they do have a huge and far more valuable market for whale watching, ” said Greenpeace campaigner Frode Pleym.
“Instead of investing in a one-man campaign to rejuvenate an outdated, unnecessary industry, that can only damage the reputation of the country internationally, Iceland should be capitalising on the value of a growing industry of watching and studying whales.”
Claims that the hunt is sustainable cannot not be credible, since nine of the 39 whales that are to be targeted are endangered Fin whales.”
Surfacing fin whales. One of the two species Iceland will begin to commercially hunt. For wildlife photographs visit www.whalephoto.com.Greenpeace omit to note that the population of fin whales in the central Atlantic is estimated at 25,800 fin whales and that by any stretch of the imagination, a catch of 9 fin whales is not going to effect the sustainability of the central Atlantic population.
When Iceland re-joined the IWC in 2001 with an objection to the moratorium, they stated “As a part of the reservation, Iceland committed itself not to authorise commercial whaling before 2006. Thereafter such whaling would not be authorised while progress was being made in negotiations regarding the IWC’s Revised Management Scheme (RMS).”
They also note, ” At the IWC’s Annual Meeting in 2005 Iceland warned that no progress was being made in the RMS discussions. No objection was raised at the Annual Meeting to Iceland’s statement. At this year’s IWC Annual Meeting, Iceland’s understanding was reconfirmed as the IWC generally agreed that talks on an RMS had reached an impasse. Therefore, the two limitations attached to Iceland’s reservation with respect to the so-called moratorium no longer apply.
Accordingly, Iceland’s reservation is now in effect and Iceland has the legal right to resume sustainable whaling. This puts Iceland in the same position as other IWC members that are not bound by the so-called moratorium, such as Norway.”
The covers will come off the harpoon guns on Icelandic whaling vessels (image from a Norwegian vessel). For photographs visit www.whalephoto.com.The chickens are finally coming home to roost in regards to the RMS “game playing” within the political plenary arm of the International Whaling commission. Iceland’s decision to resume commercial whaling may very well force anti-whaling governments to finally come to the table to deal with any genuine compromise proposals as to the real world implementation of the RMP and RMS.“
There was also comment from Japan with the Director of International Negotiations for the Fisheries Agency of Japan, Mr Morishita, congratulating Iceland for taking a bold and courageous step in the advancement of sensible management for marine living resources.
“This should come as no surprise to the world. When Iceland joined the IWC in 2001, it said it would resume sustainable commercial whaling if there were no progress on an international management regime for sustainable whaling. There has been no progress at all in that time and this has led Iceland to take unilateral action,” he said.
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
I agree with George. I think Iceland has set very low quotas as a way of dropping a hint to the IWC that it had better implement the RMP now before they decide to set limits as they please. There are many whalers out there who think that the RMP is too conservative. Why test them when proper whale conservation is at stake? Of course, that is the test for the anti-whaling nations – is proper whale conservation really what they care about?
Also, I’d add some more details from the IWC Scientific Committee report for IWC 58.
1) A Scientific Committee workshop held recently “agreed on best estimates of current abundance in the Central North Atlantic … and the eastern North Atlantic” (page 12)..
Yet, in New Zealand, dear old Chris Carter (Minister of Conservation) tried to tell everyone otherwise, saying that “there is not yet scientific consensus on fin numbers. The IWC’s scientific committee is reviewing the population status of fin whales at present. It is fair to say there is widespread disagreement.”
2) On page 13 of the same
Scientific Committee report:
“The Workshop had noted that estimated abudance west and southwest of Iceland increased at an annual rate of 10% (95% CL: 6% – 14%) between 1987 and 2001. This is the area where nearly all Icelandic fin whaling has been conducted since 1915.”
Iceland’s position is irrefutably correct.
David,
A bit off topic, but do you have any stats or info, no Greenpeace or ICR numbers, but according to an e-mail I got, the majority of Japanese people are against whaling in the Antarctic.
What do you say about this? Is it true?
Ann,
I’d say that such a statement is likely highly distorted. I’ve certainly heard no such thing (not even from the NGOs, but then I never really bother to read their PR much these days anyway :-)..
Another thing that I have seen today with the Iceland story and also in the past with the Japan situation is that the NGOs will release statistics such as “only 1% of Japanese people eat whale meat. that means that none of them want to eat it anymore”. Of course, the nonsense is that whale meat is simply not available to a large proportion of the population in the first place. The major markets are the traditional whaling areas (small populations), then Osaka and Tokyo. Elsewhere, it seems that whale meat is hard to come by.
Likewise with Iceland, the NGO reports today are saying a similar thing, yet I read a report that indicated that there is a kind of “boom” in the popularity of whale meat in Icelandic restaurants recently, and the recent opinion poll mentioned by the Iceland government also shows high levels of support for whaling.
I believe the reality is that most Japanese people don’t even have an opinion about whaling in the first place. Most people aren’t interested where their sea food came from, they are just living their everyday lives. You only start to get opinions from them once you start giving them information about the issue, or make them think about it.
This is a memorable quote IMO ( From Greenpeace NZ )
“The decision is the result of a campaign by one man, Kristjan Loftsson, a former whaler, who has collected 250 million ISK in shares for renovating his whaling station in Hvalfjordur.”
So one man´s campaign has convinced the Icelandic government to allow a commercial hunt and the campaigns of all the Anti-whaling NGO´s worldwide to stop Icelandic whaling have failed dismally ..
Now that´s got to be some kind of an Alpha male ;O)
I´ll bet you can smell the testosterone for hundreds of miles round that guy …and I´ll bet he doesn´t need to use Axe deodorant either ;O)
Interesting reaction to the news from Justin Cooke from the IUCN
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20601582-1702,00.html
Even Justin cook realises that the numbers taken are symbolic…
I´ve yet to find a single media article that makes note of the population figures concerned – facinating stuff …
Update..
I finally found a Pakistani newspaper website that quotes the relevant population figures. I tip my hat to thenews com in Pakistan 😉
George I can relate to the Icelandic alpha male whale hunter that is spreading his odour for hundreds of miles. According to a sadly misinformed source I am 26 and another example of such an ideal male image.
The Iceland decision to resume limited whale hunting is entirely rational, science based, and Iceland, from all accounts, has given the IWC plenty of warning that they should get their act together.
Here is a doozy from UK’s minister Bradshaw:
“There is no rationale for this decision, and Iceland cannot even find markets for the whale meat it gets from so-called scientific whaling.”
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Japan_Iceland_Whaling.html
Of course, the objective of scientific whaling is not to find markets for whale meat.
I really struggle to understand why these anti-whaling politicians fail to put two and two together….
” Lamna:
But first I am going to clear up the small matter of your completely bogus quote from my debate with Cree1 (who it later transpired is British, lives in the UK and is involved in farming in some way, not from an American First Nation at all) – ”
You are really funny or should I rather say pathetic to make such a comment. Again this points out your ignorance.
It was you and your number one fan Paul Watson who thought that Cree 1 was a Native Indian in the beginning. I realised from the very first second that he was not when he mentioned that his friend was a Yakuti. Have you never heard about those indigenous hunting people in Northeast Siberia, who are famous for that they can carry ice blocks with their bare hands in – 50C?
Btw, the Yakuti horse is quite famous as well, adapted to this extreme weather….
Lamna, you are a burden for Greenpeace or any other NGO for that matter, with your style, trying to knock down people to the right and left…
I especially found it distasteful when you complain that non native English speaking persons speak bad English – you certainly can scare away people…
Lamna, I have left Greenpeace now, I hope you can forward this info to your GP webbie friend, much thanks to your and her childish behaviour….
And oh Lamna, do you remember what really happened when you tried to improve my anti whaling protest letter to the Norwegians back at the GP Cybercentre?
I have never bothered to point it out to you until now, but you changed my facts and wrote that the Norwegians conducted ” scientific whaling” as well… I recommend you to check it out….
Keep up the good work in the future as well…
Ann? Is that you? You left Greenpeace?
Well… congratulations 🙂
And who’s number one fan is Paul Watson? Does Lamna Nasus = Paul Watson?
Another good one (lots of fun quotes about the place right now):
“Not only is this unacceptable but it undermines the effectiveness of the International Whaling Commission, as well as a decision made in good faith by the international community over 20 years ago.” – Dr Susan Lieberman
Err, so the “moratorium” was a decision made in “good faith”? This is the same moratorium that was supposed to be reviewed by 1990 at the latest with a view to setting non-zero catch limits, as well as the moratorium which remains in place despite the development of the RMP, isn’t it? Also the same moratorium that was bought by the anti-whaling NGO groups, no? Some definition of “good faith” that must be!
It’s ridiculous to suggest that this move undermines the IWC. The IWC has been undermined ever since it’s inception, by politicians who refuse to make management decisions in accordance with scientific advice, as they are supposed to. Instead they make decisions based on political considerations – this was the case up until the 1960s when limits were set based on industry requirements, not science, and is still the case today, where zero-limits are maintained based on shaky cultural and ethical arguments, not science.
2006 was the first year when a majority of IWC member nations affirmed that they believe decisions must be made based on science – they have seen the wisdom of this. When will WWF…
Hey David,
I must say that I still like GP Nordic, however some actions are uncompatible with my ideology, and of course this Lamna guy played a big part. Really don’t like that he reports back to a GP webbie what I discuss in the forums….
A confirmation that this is just the beginning:
“According to mbl.is, the Marine Institute suggested that up to 400 minkes and 200 fin whales could be hunted yearly for sustainable whaling.”
http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=40764&ew_0_a_id=238109
These levels are most probably sustainable, but the reality is that if the IWC implemented an RMS, the IWC members would actually have to vote to approve such a catch limit. The IWC members could vote to only allow a catch of 50% of that which is advised. But this isn’t possible while Iceland is unilaterally setting it’s own limits, outside the IWC’s control. Of course, Iceland might take a reservation against such decisions anyway, but hey, what do the anti-whaling nations have to lose? They clearly have something to gain.
Ann,
I guess some of your comments about the place wouldn’t be popular with Greenpeace’s international management (same with Tomakints recent agreement with me), but still, I wouldn’t quit the organization just because of one nasty scumbag. Of course, if Greenpeace prefers LM to you, then that’s just a further bad reflection on them… if that’s the case then they don’t deserve you. Seriously, WWF seem to be a tad more reasonable, and as far as I have seen, no nut cases. They don’t have that crazed left-wing anti-capitalism streak, either.
Hi anne,
If you mean this one from the Greenpeace archives, then I have some comments :
http://activism.greenpeace.org/cybercentre/gpi/Community/1107766649/1107766649.html
“Dear Stein Ove Rolland,
I have always wanted to visit Norway, it is a beautiful country and it has many wonderful, ecologically friendly holiday options, including whale watching in Tysfjord.”
Huh? Whale watching in Tysfjord is ecologically friendly? Really? Lets see, upwards of 20 zodiacs in action, upwards of 3-5 larger ships ( which are actually a lot more eco-friendly than lots of smaller boats ) Lets take a a look at Transun travel, a UK travel company – they send between 2000 to 4000 day tourists there a year – The folk join a plane at an ungodly hour in the morning, fly to Oslo, fly from their to Evenes, hop onto whale watching boats, spend a few hours on the fjord, go to Narvik for last minute shopping and then they fly home same day.
Ecologically friendly my bottom 😉
“However, as long as whaling continues and the Norwegian delegation to the IWC continues to support the end of the whaling moratorium, in favour of the re-introduction of commercial whaling; many tourists, including myself, will not book holidays to Norway.”
Personal choice of course, then again, threats of tourism boycotts have had little to no effect on Norwegian tourism – Google the figures if you require numbers…
“A large proportion of Norway’s tourist visitors come from Sweden, Denmark, Germany, the UK and the US. These countries all support a permanent end to commercial whaling.”
Really? somebody forgot to tell that to Denmark and the Faroe Islands then .. of course, the population of all of these countries quite happily spend their disposable income on and in Norway in large numbers, despite what their Governments bluster about ..
“If commercial whaling is re-introduced, the resulting boycott of Norway and Norwegian products, will have a very severe negative financial impact on the Norwegian tourist industry and economy. A far greater impact in fact than any revenues commercial whaling might raise, before the inevitable crash in whale stocks.”
What a load of crap – this letter was written on 07 February 2005 @ 03:05 PM … around 12 years after Norway began commercial whaling.
Tourists are still flocking to Norway and any boycott of Norwegian products has had little to no effect – I will quite happily list many of the Norwegian products that anyone who wishes to can boycott – you may very well be surprised and of course, you should also boycott all of the other whaling countries products too right?
“The re-introduction of commercial whaling would also attract the international, negative publicity of Norway trading in a heavily contaminated food product.”
Commercial whaling 1993 remember? and Norway has already been trading in whale products. Nope, does not look like such negative publicity has had much effect on tourism
“Whaling will never provide the same level of financial return to the the Norwegian economy as eco-tourism, since a dead whale can only be sold once.”
and? point being? Perhaps it does not occur to an anti- whaling activist that whaling does not need to provide the same level of financial return as eco tourism? and in fact, operates just fine alongside eco-tourism in Norway?
“I urge you and the Norwegian tourist industry to protect the economic interests of your industry. Act now, by asking the Norwegian government to make an irrevocable decision to end support for commercial and ‘scientific’ whaling.”
Scientific whaling again ..would you like me to indicate when Norway has been whaling under scientific permit? you seem to be a tad confused on the matter
“Norway will generate far greater revenues from conservation than from whaling.
Respectfully,”
I´m sure they were most thankful for the suggestions … tell me, did they adopt any? No? … ah well …
Incidentally, the GP archives are quite illuminating for those who may be interested in such things… Google is your friend 😉
Anne, If you feel that ” however some actions are uncompatible with my ideology ” then of course, you should follow your ideology and what that entails. I would not personally let myself be pressurised out of an organisation by anyone, but I do hear where you are coming from .. and anyway, as an ex member, you can still always support the actions / campaigns you do believe
in of course ….
Recent tourism figures for Norway BTW..
http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/09/01/turismesat_en/main.html
and from Iceland ( P.16)
http://www.iceland.is/media/iceland-is/iceland05_utanr.pdf
I´d add more but Jen´s blog software is not to keen on more than a couple of links in a post I believe….
So one man´s campaign has convinced the Icelandic government to allow a commercial hunt and the campaigns of all the Anti-whaling NGO´s worldwide to stop Icelandic whaling have failed dismally ..
IMO there has not been many anti whaling campaigns on Icelandic whaling since GP was over there last year…
Hey, GP Nordic even doesn’t have a Whales campaigner anymore… so it is not totally unexpected that they lose this campaign..the Icelanders have also been smart, they don’t release much information on quotas etc.
Do we have any information from Japan if they are going to open up their export market for the Icelanders .
It may also occur that they see Iceland as a competitor…
Ann,
LM is not a favourite of mine either. He plays to many games for my liking. Perhaps he comes from the same school of UK activists that favour direct attack on the credibility of the person rather than the issue .
My views are my own and based on what I sincerely believe is the closest approximation to the objective truth. I intensely dislike being misrepresented and to have words attributed to me that are false.
I left a thread behind where we were discussing our experiences of totalitarian regimes because I got distracted by LM.
Perhaps we could discuss this in some other forum. I am from a minority ethnic group in Northern Sweden and proud of where I come from and know where I belong in the larger picture although I find myself a long way from home.
Långt borta från hembygden vet du.
Hi anne,
Campaign Whale
Environmental Investigation Agency
International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW)
Greenpeace
Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society
World Society for the Protection of Animals
All of which signed on to this statement in 2003..
http://www.eia-international.org/cgi/news/news.cgi?t=template&a=159
I´m sure there are more out there but :
Iceland has Kristjan Loftsson – SUPERCAMPAIGNER! women faint, men hide and governments tremble whenever he passes by .. ;op
and he still needs no AXE deodorant …
Hi George,
Disingenuous as ever. Nine protected fin whales is not commercial whaling and well you know it. The whaling industry needs to start over from a small base, training crews and setting up new markets, ramping up demand in anticipation of buying enough votes with overseas development aid to resume commercial whaling; then the real slaughter begins and it will not be nine whales.
A commercial market requires increased returns ever year to satisfy shareholders and that means more whales every year.
This of course does not include false reporting of catches, the smuggling of products from protected species amongst the authorised catch and countries opting out of quotas as they are allowed to do under IWC rules.
The New Zealand government set a quota of 150 protected New Zealand Sealions because there was going to be bycatch anyway, the Squid fishery generates income and fishermen vote. Sealions do neither.
The IWMC is currently advising pro-whaling nations on the correct political mechanisms to remove whale species from the CITES protected lists to ensure that this is not a hinderence to commercial hunting.
The largest market for whale meat is the Japanese Fisheries Ministry, which has an extremely poor record for conservation especially on products that come from international waters.
Japan admits overfishing and agrees to halve its tuna quota for five years as penance.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6057576.stm
While it is possible that the Japanese Fisheries Ministry may be coming around to the idea of genuine sustainable use, in view if the fact that they were caught overfishing, and have been doing so for years; this may be nothing more than political window dressing. As the BBC article points out ‘almost all the southern blue-fin tuna caught in the world is sent to Japan.’
Since some tuna fishing nations have not agreed to recognise the international quotas set by the various tuna fishing regulatory bodies only time will tell if this has any conservation effect on tuna stocks or if the Japanese Fisheries Ministry maintains the current unsustainable pressure on tuna stocks through third party suppliers, but in view of past transgressions an the insatiable demand for tuna, there is no particular grounds for optimism.
The simple fact is that only a couple of small nations on earth need to whale and they can be accomodated within Aboriginal hunt quotas. Norway, Iceland and Japan could satisfy their’ ‘cultural’ requirements within their own sovereign waters.
The fact that the fin whale is a protected species says it all, in the event of a return to commercial whaling, no species of whale will be off limits.
Hi Roger,
Yes, I would appreciate to discuss the topic that you mentioned in some forum with you… btw I’m going to post a comment on GMOs on your thread if I just find the newspaper. It’s a scientific study on GMOs from Sveriges Lantbruksinstitut.
Both negative and positive studies on GMOs, and how the chemical composition in GE aspens is changed.
Hope I will find it somewhere…
Hi Pat,
” Disingenuous as ever. Nine protected fin whales is not commercial whaling and well you know it.”
Between now and August 2007, Iceland will commercially hunt 9 fin whales and 30 Minke whales. ( as well as the rest of their Scientific quota ) After that, they will of course decide if they will continue a commercial hunt. The current commercial license ends in August 2007.
Do you deny this?
“The whaling industry needs to start over from a small base, training crews”
They are already at sea in case you had not noticed. They have also been whaling the last couple of years on their SC quota in case you had not noticed either.
“and setting up new markets,”
Of course they will try and set up markets, that´s the point of COMMERCIAL whaling ..
“ramping up demand in anticipation of buying enough votes with overseas development aid to resume commercial whaling; then the real slaughter begins and it will not be nine whales.”
Buying enough votes? what on earth are you blathering about? ODA? Iceland will buy votes with ODA? I think you are confusing your anti Japanese whaling rhetoric with Iceland ( I could be wrong though, maybe you do mean Iceland will buy votes with ODA ..laughable though the concept is)
” A commercial market requires increased returns ever year to satisfy shareholders and that means more whales every year.”
Norway has been commercially whaling since 1993 – and the number of whales taken has remained static and average around 500 minkies a year – there is currently no major market for more in case you had not noticed. The market has remained relatively stable. If and ONLY if a major export market was opened, would we see a possible increase in the numbers taken – tell me, where is that market? Do you know of one?
It´s moot anyway as Norway follows the RMP as if it was in place ( Albeit with a different tuning level )
“This of course does not include false reporting of catches, the smuggling of products from protected species amongst the authorised catch and countries opting out of quotas as they are allowed to do under IWC rules.”
Cites please of proven cases of smuggling by Norway or Iceland – I´ll give you a clue, I mentioned one in a previous post on this blog, I´m sure you can find it…
Cites please of proven false reporting of catches by Norway or Iceland
IWC rules? which ones are you refering to?
>SNIPPED attempt to change the subject from Icelandic and Norwegian whaling to Japanese tuna…<
” The simple fact is that only a couple of small nations on earth need to whale and they can be accomodated within Aboriginal hunt quotas. Norway, Iceland and Japan could satisfy their’ ‘cultural’ requirements within their own sovereign waters. ”
The USA is small? Russia is small? Japan is small? Norway is small? … are you refering to land mass or population?…
The fact that there are 25,800 Fin whales in the central Atlantic must have escaped your attention then. As david noted :
“According to mbl.is, the Marine Institute suggested that up to 400 minkes and 200 fin whales could be hunted yearly for sustainable whaling”
I´ll also note that a quota of 2000 minkies could theoretically be taken by the Norwegians yearly given current figures …
To Landsman far away from hembygden,
The study is from SLU, Sveriges Lantbruksuniversitet.
Hi George,
I forgot neo-conservatives always harp on about the fact that environmentalists should not fly to important political summits or in fact do anything except shout their point of view from the top of hills while wearing grass skirts and eating nuts and berries, in order to avoid being accused of hypocrisy.
Grow up, George.
Perhaps George googled for that archived letter from Greenpeace’s old cybercentre or perhaps I have been a hate figure for Georgie for a very long time, either way I’m flattered and thank you George for giving it greater exposure.
Interesting to see you state that Norway carries out no scientific whaling, what not even to establish stocks, quotas etc?
Regardless of your opinion of whether scientific whaling is used by Norway in view of the Japanese Fisheries Ministry policy my letter was designed to cover loopholes.
Wouldn’t want a politian to be able to say ‘we have ended commercial whaling’ and then carry on whaling in exactly the same manner but say ‘its not commercial whaling, its science.’
‘I will quite happily list many of the Norwegian products that anyone who wishes to can boycott.’
– George
Go right ahead big fella…what you changed your mind…..I think you got rather carried away there, eh?
‘operates just fine alongside eco-tourism in Norway’ – George
‘Around 80 tourists had paid to go out on a whale-watching boat from Andenes, in northern Norway. Called “whale safaris” locally, the whale-watching has become an increasingly popular tourist attraction in recent years.
While the tourists were admiring one of the great mammals of the sea, however, a Norwegian whaling boat approached and shot the whale in front of their eyes.
Leontien Dieleman from the Netherlands was among those who was shocked by the slaughter they suddenly and unexpectedly witnessed.
“This really wasn’t what we came to see,” Dieleman told local newspaper Andøyposten
– Andøyposten, 19th October 2006
Hi George,
‘Buying enough votes? what on earth are you blathering about? ODA? Iceland will buy votes with ODA? ‘ – George
You are rushing in where Angels fear to tread again George , I said ‘the whaling industry’ and that includes the Japanese Fisheries Ministry or of course you could just be ignoring the fact to support your political spin?
‘Norway has been commercially whaling since 1993 – and the number of whales taken has remained static and average around 500 minkies a year – there is currently no major market for more in case you had not noticed. The market has remained relatively stable. If and ONLY if a major export market was opened, would we see a possible increase in the numbers taken – tell me, where is that market? Do you know of one?’ – George
George this is all getting rather transparent, Japan Iceland and Norway want to get Commercial whaling officially re-introduced at the IWC, a fact that you and David have been vociferously championing and David also likes to claim the demand is there in Japan.
Stop trying to disingenuosly claim this will remain some sort of cultural cottage industry, if that where the case Iceland, Norway and Japan would only whale in their sovereign waters and that would be that.
‘I´ll also note that a quota of 2000 minkies could theoretically be taken by the Norwegians yearly given current figures …’ – George
In the event of commercial whaling being re-introduced at the IWC, it will be.
Correction –
My quote from Andoyposten should have been dated 4th July 2006.
George – a minor point:
Norway had a scientific whaling program on minkes in the early 90s, prior to the reintroduction of commerical whaling. Check it.
And on this:
Huh? Whale watching in Tysfjord is ecologically friendly?
So are you going to stop working there?
Hi peter,
I know Norway had a scientific whaling program prior to their reintroduction of commerical whaling. I´ve mentioned it elsewhere in this blog.
I have not been in Tysfjord since the 2004 season and stopped having anything to do with the WW operators before that Peter..
Peter is quite right, but to be picky … the context there was in terms of asking the Norwegian government to end support for it:
“Act now, by asking the Norwegian government to make an irrevocable decision to end support for commercial and ‘scientific’ whaling.”
Of course, Norway has already ceased scientific whaling, which is the point I believe George was making.
Hi again Pat,
Do you deny that Norway is currently whaling commercially and has been since 1993?
Do you deny that the Iclandic commercial whaling License ends in August 2007?
Tell us where the markets are Pat, and whilst you are at it,
Cites please of proven cases of smuggling by Norway or Iceland
Cites please of proven false reporting of catches by Norway or Iceland
Thanks for the correction George. It didn’t read that way through this thread. And nice to hear that you’ve some backbone re Tysfjord.
Anoter minor addition – Norway’s been calling for a scientific whaling project in Russian waters through the Norwegian-Russian fisheries commission, for several years now. So it certainly still supports scientific whaling.
One other thing Peter,
FYI,
My ceasing to go to Tysfjord has nothing to do with whether it is ecologically friendly or not – I´m merely refuting the claim of ” many wonderful, ecologically friendly holiday options, including whale watching in Tysfjord ” regarding Tysfjord
Peter,
It seems like Norway has been denied access to easten Barents Sea to carry out that research… methink of political reasons, probably about the Electron affair or the ” fiskevernssonen around Svalbard”.
Hi Again Peter,
RE: ” Norway’s been calling for a scientific whaling project in Russian waters through the Norwegian-Russian fisheries commission, for several years now. So it certainly still supports scientific whaling.”
As Russia has denied access to IMR ships for both whale counting and fisheries research repeatedly the last few years, I would say that indicates next to zero chance of PINRO´s agreeing to it – do you concur?
I never denied that Norway may support SC whaling Peter … that is, of course, their choice.
Gee George, so should I revoke my compliment then?
And yes Ann, I know that the Russians won’t let the whalers in. The point – referring to David’s post – was that Norway still actively supports scientific whaling. It just lacks opportunity.
And George, do you really want to push this one:
Cites please of proven cases of smuggling by Norway or Iceland
Don’t you remember the “prawns” bound for Japan that burst open at Oslo airport back in 93? Wasn’t the charming Steinar involved in that? 93 – wasn’t that around the time that commercial whaling restarted?
George I think that there are scientists in PINRO who agree with it, the Russian authorities don’t. Rather touchy part of the world, off northwest Russia.
I was just attempting a little clarification to David’s comment.
Peter,
As far as I know some media in Norway has mentioned that Norway wants to conduct scientific whaling as well on methink Fin whales and Humpbacks, this is of course rumours that always circulate..
Gee Peter, are you taking your compliment back? up to you 😉
Yes I do remember the prawns , I´ve been looking for links to that one myself – care to provide one?
I mentioned the case of the whaler taking an extra minke elswhere in this blog as well ..
Isolated cases of smuggling and or the case of the extra minke I mention above have certainly happened – they are hardly the norm in Iceland or Norway though as I´m sure you will agree .. do you?
” This of course does not include false reporting of catches, the smuggling of products from protected species amongst the authorised catch ”
This insinuates that it is the norm and in the case of Russian underreporting of catches previously, would be correct..
However, I argue that it is not the Norm in Norway or Iceland, especially in view of current controls that we have today..
Peter
” George I think that there are scientists in PINRO who agree with it, the Russian authorities don’t. Rather touchy part of the world, off northwest Russia.
I was just attempting a little clarification to David’s comment.”
Point taken and quite agree with you RE.. a touchy part of the world..
Didn’t the whaler/politician Bastesen try to smuggel whale blubber to Japan back in the 90’s?
“So it certainly still supports scientific whaling.”
Yes, I think we can all agree that Norway supports the principle of scientific whaling. Norway isn’t currently conducting any scientific whaling though, which was the original point.
Another question for you Pat,
“Norway, Iceland and Japan could satisfy their’ ‘cultural’ requirements within their own sovereign waters.”
Interesting comment, would you personally accept whaling by any of these three countries within their own sovereign waters / EEZ ?
Feel free to reply to any of my other questions…
Hot off the press:
“Already there are signs of whaling affecting tourism in Iceland negatively.”
http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16539&ew_0_a_id=238383
“Heimir Hardarson, marketing director of whale watching company Nordursiglingar in Húsavík, northeast Iceland, says tourists have already started canceling trips to Iceland.”
“Already today a few customers called us to see if this was really true. There are enough alternative destinations to go to.”
Wow, a few customers? Oh no. That’ll really murder their bottom lines. They should relax. The western public is fickle and will have forgotten about this by next month. Iceland has already been killing whales since 2003 or so anyway, and the western public already ardently believes that the scientific whaling programmes were “commercial whaling in disguise”.
Are we to believe that people won’t go to Iceland now that they see them as being more honest?
Pathetic.
This last bit is interesting:
“Fridrik J. Arngrímsson, manager of the Association of Icelandic Fishing Vessel Owners (LÍÚ), told Fréttabladid that whaling will pay off, even if there is no market for whale meat.
Arngrímsson said whales in Icelandic waters compete with the fish for food, and with so many whales, the fish industry loses ISK 10 billions a year (EUR 117 million, USD 146).”
What I hope to see is actual industry data coming out of Iceland that illustrates increases in fisheries production.
I’ll have to see what I can find along those lines in the Japan situation sometime.
Absolutely George, it’s not the norm, but it does happen. You seemed to be asking for examples of it happening, not of it being rife. My apologies if you weren’t.
Ann – that the smuggling was being run by the head of the small whalers’ association at the time, who later became a member of parliament, is interesting.
Everywhere – all nations – some fishermen will push the limits and engage in illegal activity. In some cases, the nature and extent of that activity is so great that it suggests it’s not just isolated cases. The Soviet underreporting. The recent tuna fiasco, perhaps?
Peter,
I know it does happen and has happened, and I fully support the prosecution of those doing it.
My point was that it is not the Norm in modern day whaling in Iceland or Norway as the statement insinuates – and yes, I would appreciate any more examples that you know of – I only know of the one case of each – the packaged prawns case and the extra minke some years back – so no apologies neccessary 😉 I also noted that the skipper/ owner in the extra minke case was prosecuted elsewhere on the blog.
Hi George,
Still trying to create a scenario to fit your imagination I see –
‘This of course does not include false reporting of catches, the smuggling of products from protected species amongst the authorised catch and countries opting out of quotas as they are allowed to do under IWC rules.’
that quote comes immediatly after – ‘A commercial market requires increased returns ever year to satisfy shareholders and that means more whales every year.’
So it quite clearly refers to a post re-introduction of commercial whaling scenario.
You also cannot guarantee that there is currently no market for smuggled products from protected whale species in Japan, since the Japanese Fisheries Ministry managed to be ‘unaware’ of huge quantities of over quota tuna for years.
Don’t bother trying to portray the mentioning of ‘tuna’ as being off topic since we both know its the same Ministry and David in particular likes to draw parallels between different seafood markets to back his disingenuous arguments.
“it does happen”
Indeed. There are bad people in this world (plenty of evidence of that on this blog lately, unfortunately)
“In some cases, the nature and extent of that activity is so great that it suggests it’s not just isolated cases.”
In such cases, it’s worth fixing the system first.
“The recent tuna fiasco, perhaps?”
That’s an interesting one. Japan acknowledged 1,500 tonnes of overcatch earlier this year, and swiftly moved to introduce measures to prevent it happening again.
Australia has accused it of taking 100,000 tonnes more than it’s quota over a number of years (which as far as I can tell is still unsubstantiated accusation).
Amusingly, the SBT is listed by IUCN as “Critically Endangered”.
Fin whales are only “Endangered”, but Australia thinks it’s wrong to kill them.
Still ok to hunt SBT though, and export it to Japan. That’s the difference apparently. Whether Australians are the ones profiting or not. Conservation? That only applies to other nations.
Forgot a list of some Norwegian products/ inventions … lets see
Various seafood products- too many to list here..
Jarlsberg cheese,
Brown goat cheese ( even I boycott that one )
Jet turbines ( don´t fly )
Norwegian cheese slicer ( how can we forget )
Paperclips
Aerosol cans
Opera Browser
There´s actually a fair bit of debate about whether or not a norwegian was first to patent TV, so maybe throw out your TV just in case he was first..
What else… Lots of Oil products ( check where you buy )
Linie Aquavit
Mack and Ringnes beers amongst others..
Lutefisk ( an aquired taste )
anything from TINE ..
Don´t fly SAS / Braathens or Wideroe
Anything from Norsk Hydro or Kvaerner
Don´t travel on any of the Hurtigruten ships ..
that will do for now, and of course, you should also avoid any Icelandic and Japanese products so LOTS of electronic goods and components, cars etc …
That´s of course if you believe that boycotting goods from whaling countries does any good or works ( I don´t 😉
Peter,
I think this guy Bastesen, is the head of the Kustpartiet( The Coastal Party). Methink as well that a bought a new whaling boat this year…
If I recall right, I think there was a case as well in Fornebu Airport where some people tried to smuggel whale meat to Sweden… there used to be a taxfree shop that sold whale meat…
anything from TINE ..
No, no George , methink TINE is anti whaling
George,
Sorry , if I’m wrong but they used to be anti whaling in the 90’s, it’s really possible that they have changed opinion now! Strong protest from farmers I guess…
Lets see .. according to the NGO´s the markets for whale meat are saturated in Norway, Iceland and Japan with stockpiles piling up in warehouses… So according to the NGO´s – the market is saturated and nobody wants to buy whale meat …
SO where is your alledged market? where are they going to sell your alledged smuggled products? In Japan? where the market is already saturated according to the NGO´s?
” You also cannot guarantee that there is currently no market for smuggled products from protected whale species in Japan”
Where are the smuggled products?
And where is the market?
Cites please of proven cases of smuggling by Norway or Iceland
Peter has given you one
Cites please of proven false reporting of catches by Norway or Iceland
I have given you this one ( look through this blog )
Do you deny that Norway is currently whaling commercially and has been since 1993?
“Norway, Iceland and Japan could satisfy their’ ‘cultural’ requirements within their own sovereign waters.”
Interesting comment, would you personally accept whaling by any of these three countries within their own sovereign waters / EEZ ?
Feel free to reply to any of my other questions…
Arngrímsson said whales in Icelandic waters compete with the fish for food, and with so many whales, the fish industry loses ISK 10 billions a year (EUR 117 million, USD 146).”
But does the Fin whales eat cod, that is the main concern of the fisheries? Doubt so…
Hi anne,
Tine is a norwegian company and I offered a list of Norwegian products / stuff that anybody can decide to boycott if they feel that it does the slightest bit of good ( I don´t)
BTW Peter,
did you see this? Rokke got knocked back on his Southern oceans Krill plans ..
http://www.fiskeribladet.no/default.asp?lesmer=4565
Hope your Norsk is still up to scratch;)
Hi George,
Thanks for the list, the Opera browser has gone, to be honest I didn’t use it much.
‘Invented by’ is not the same as ‘manufactured in’ and I’m surprised to hear a Scot willing to give away his heritage to another nation. I back Mr Baird’s claim, however I am with the Irish on whiskey and kilts but bagpipes I can’t make my mind up about. :o)
Have you chucked your apple computer(s) yet?
No?
tsk tsk ..
Hi George,
I’m working to improve things from inside the industry but don’t tell anyone its all very hush hush. :O)
I will send my next post by telepathy, but I’m not sure Jen’s system is equiped to deal with it, the industry standard is still being disputed.
I just checked out GPI’s website.
I was glad to find that a guy from Iceland responed.
However, his reply seems to be a standard reply from Iceland.
Loftur said something along the line that ” you foreigners don’t understand us Icelanders. We hunt the whales because they eat our fish”.
So, at first glance it seems like it has nothing to do with demand of whale meat.
It has to do with the fisheries and nationalistic pride…
A while ago I had a similar conversation with an Icelander. I told him that the whales were a gift from heaven.” No , we don’t think so , they eat our fish”, he replied to me.
Regarding Norway’s whale culling policy one Norwegian guy told me that this was still a little tabu to discuss! It seemed to me that it was OK to hunt the whales for meat, but not to mention that they eat too many fish…
Personally, I think it is totally wrong and incorrect to blame the decline of fish stocks on the whales…
Interesting commentary from the Managing Director of Discover the World, a UK travel company that sends tourists to Iceland on
Iceland´s resumption of commercial whaling.
http://www.discover-the-world.co.uk/whaling.asp
Paul Watsons threatens to return to Iceland according to Iceland Review:
http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16539&ew_0_a_id=238656
And it seems like the biggest daily paper Morgunbladit is against a resumption of commercial whaling. They wrote in the editorial that it was only a one man enterprise…
“They wrote in the editorial that it was only a one man enterprise…”
Yes anne, but of course he is ..
Kristjan Loftsson – SUPERCAMPAIGNER!
Missed this question 🙁 ..
” Interesting to see you state that Norway carries out no scientific whaling, what not even to establish stocks, quotas etc? ”
Patrick, Norway resumed commercial whaling in 1993 after a few years of whaling under SC permit. If you would like to find out the numbers taken, I suggest you visit the HNA website.
and Pat, Norway conducts surveys yearly ( since 1995 anyway )to determine population numbers. I note that the figures arrived at from these surveys are accepted by the IWC.
Of course, anyone can have the belief that Norway is hunting today under SC permit and not commercially, it is however, a belief that has zero to do with reality..
NOTE : Norways catches under SC permit ..
1988** 29 minke
1989** 17 minke
1990** 5 minke
1992** 95 minke
1993** 69 minke
1994** 73 minke
** Programme of research included non-lethal techniques to investigate status.
Did´nt realise that 73 were taken in 1994 under SC permit – you learn something new every day …
Hi George,
” Interesting to see you state that Norway carries out no scientific whaling, what not even to establish stocks, quotas etc? ”
That statement does not say that ‘Norway is hunting today under SC permit’ nor did my letter in 2005.
I will try to make things a little more obvious for you –
‘as long as WHALING continues and the NORWEGIAN DELEGATION TO THE IWC continues to SUPPORT the END of the WHALING MORATORIUM……..
the Norwegian government to make an irrevocable decision to END SUPPORT for COMMERCIAL AND ‘SCIENTIFIC’ whaling.”
Anthing else you are intent on deliberately misinterpreting George?
Hi Patrick
” “If commercial whaling is re-introduced, the resulting boycott of Norway and Norwegian products, will have a very severe negative financial impact on the Norwegian tourist industry and economy. A far greater impact in fact than any revenues commercial whaling might raise, before the inevitable crash in whale stocks.”
Followed by :
” “The re-introduction of commercial whaling would also attract the international, negative publicity of Norway trading in a heavily contaminated food product.”
IF COMMERCIAL WHALING IS RE -INTRODUCED
2005 Patrick – why are you telling Norway that you will boycott them if they re -introduce commercial whaling in 2005 when they have already been commercialy whaling for 12 years?
Hmmm? Or did you mean something else in 2005? – looks plain to me…
” Disingenuous as ever. Nine protected fin whales is not commercial whaling and well you know it.”
Iceland says the 9 fins are a commercial hunt – the license says it, the media says it and even the NGO´s say the hunting of 9 fins whales by Iceland is a commercial hunt Patrick ..
You are the only one disagreeing so far but that´s your choice of course….
Hi George,
‘Nine protected fin whales is not commercial whaling and well you know it. THE WHALING INDUSTRY needs to start over from a small base, training crews and setting up new markets, ramping up demand in anticipation of buying enough votes with overseas development aid to resume commercial whaling; then the real slaughter begins and it will not be nine whales.
It is quite clear from the entirety of the statement that the scenario will not remain at nine whales in the event of the re-introduction of large scale international commercial whaling via the pro-commercial whaling faction at the IWC; which is why I mentioned the vote buying, it is also why I finish the statement with ‘then the real slaughter begins and it will not be nine whales.’ Its also why the word ‘Iceland’ does not occur.
For your point to be valid the statement should read thus –
If NORWGIAN commercial whaling is re-introduced…..The re-introduction of NORWEGIAN commercial whaling
which is why I do write NORWEGIAN as follows –
”as long as WHALING continues and the NORWEGIAN DELEGATION TO THE IWC continues to SUPPORT the END of the WHALING MORATORIUM……..
the NORWEGIAN GOVERNMENT to make an irrevocable decision to END SUPPORT for COMMERCIAL AND ‘SCIENTIFIC’ whaling.”
If I had written – the NORWEGIAN GOVERNMENT to make an irrevocable decision to END SUPPORT for COMMERCIAL AND ‘SCIENTIFIC’ whaling at home and abroad – it might have been clearer to George but when I wrote it, I didn’t know George would want to split hairs in October 2006 and besides it wasn’t addressed to him. :o)
According to Norwegian fishermen’s website Fiskaren, was the first Fin whale harpooned yesterday afternoon in Iceland.
And according to Norwegian Havsforskningsinstituttet( Marine research Institute) there are only between 500 to 1000 Fin whales in the Barents Sea.
The weather is bad on the hunting grounds and the autumn light is poor.
http://www.fiskaren.no/incoming/article118403.ece
Patrick,
Good of you to clarify your statements 😉 I must admit, they were a wee bit vague to a simple old guy like me..
Whilst you are at it, can you clarify or maybe answer these questions as well?
Do you now accept that the Icelandic quota of 30 minkies and 9 Fin whales to be taken under licence before 31st of August 2007 is in fact, a commercial hunt?
Or
“Norway, Iceland and Japan could satisfy their’ ‘cultural’ requirements within their own sovereign waters.”
Interesting comment, would you personally accept whaling by any of these three countries within their own sovereign waters / EEZ ?
Or
” You also cannot guarantee that there is currently no market for smuggled products from protected whale species in Japan”
Where are the smuggled products?
And where is the market?
Cites please of proven cases of smuggling by Norway or Iceland
Peter has given you one
Cites please of proven false reporting of catches by Norway or Iceland
I have given you this one ( look through this blog )
And if you would be so kind, would you care to elaborate on how ecologially friendly whale watching in Tysfjord is?
Interesting Image used by The Fiskaren article anne links to – it was taken in 1999 according to the copyline .. 19.95 for fin whale beef in Greenland. 19.95? Must be that it was on sale commercially then. But that´s ok, as it is an aboriginal hunt – or do you disagree?
What´s your take on that Patrick, is it ok for Aboriginal hunters to sell their take commercially??
> I think it is totally wrong and incorrect to blame the decline of fish stocks on the whales…
Ann,
Whales do eat some quantity of fish though, don’t you agree? Of course, the argument about how significant it is seems to be an open question, and the answer likely differs depending on the region we talk about.
I can agree that people who catch fish probably have a biased view of whales, but if they are allowed to profit from whale slaughter as well as fish stocks, then they have an incentive to conserve both, I believe.
Always good to read your comments, by the way Ann. I’ve been writing some comments to Andrew over at Ocean Defenders this afternoon, his response should be interesting. I’ve told him that I’ll donate to Greenpeace (for the good things that they do do) if they just modify their anti-whaling policy to prove that my money won’t be flushed down the drain in the Antarctic this summer.
Hi David,
I think you should mention to Andrew that the action against the toxic tanker Probo Koala was a very good job of Greenpeace, actually one of their best actions ever IMO… they would be a little surprised though if you ever mention this to them!
However, I believe as well if you sometimes mention some positive NGO work they would take you much more seriously. Promise!
Some comments by Ian Campbell :
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Icelandic-whalers-giving-the-finger/2006/10/22/1161455600600.html
“This is not just sticking a harpoon into a species that’s endangered, You wonder how Iceland could be a member of the global community with an act like this.”
“This is really sticking two fingers in the air at the entire global community, the entire international, environmental institutional arrangements.”
“They can’t be taken seriously on any environmental issue in the future,”
“Senator Campbell said that, without anything else going wrong, fin whales were close to extinction.”
Fin whales are close to extinction? Well, IMO, Senator Campbell ” can’t be taken seriously on any environmental issue in the future” if he maintains that claim
Hi George,
Don’t know how people in Iceland have reacted on Ian’s statements but I just read Norwegian paper Dagbladet that sometimes posts quite anti whaling articles and has as well anti whaling commentators.
I think the anti whaling movement should be very careful with its comments. In Norway they usually are very counterproductive.
So far the comments are mostly in line with ” keep up the good work, hunters”!
The situation might be a bit different in Iceland, they have this strong whale watching industry…
http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/10/22/480508.html
Ann,
Unfortunately I’ve never heard of the toxic tanker Probo Koala or what Greenpeace did about it. All I really hear from them in the news is complaints about whaling, something about computers, and jokes about “ALARMIST FACTOIDS”!
I have made some comments to them that I would support them if they would focus on true conservation issues, and Andrew seemed interested to discuss when I mentioned overfishing problems with Tuna, and how Australia doesn’t appear to be getting much treatment.
Hey George,
I noticed Ian Campbell’s comments myself (blogged it a few hours back) and came to the same conclusion as you, but when I checked out his actual press release, I think what the media reported was a bit of a paraphrase – he said that the fin whale is “endangered” which according to IUCN’s criteria means it is close to extinction – more stupidity on the part of the IUCN’s criteria (or a signal that it’s time to re-evaluate the criteria again).
Nonetheless, he does deserve to be criticised for misleading the public by his reference to extinction 🙂 Particularly while he protects his southern bluefin tuna fishers – that’s a “critically endangered” species after all…
Argh, ridiculous!
Sea Shepherd has described Iceland as “the North Korea of whalers”.
http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_061018_1.html
What on earth does that actually mean?
Anyway, I took the opportunity to use the links provided by Sea Shepherd to send my congratulations to Iceland’s PM. Hopefully they read and respond to each email 🙂
Just an aside ..
Whale watching numbers in Norway at Andenes, the main ( and most successful )whale watching operator :
13.300 2006
16.057 2005
9.400 2003
12.500 2002
14.458 1998
The numbers vary by year due to weather conditions, but in general follow a slow upward trend from the inception of whale watching from Andenes in 1988. In total, almost 200,000 tourists have participated on a whalesafari from Andenes since 1988.
Whalesafari AS., the company, had an income of 8,991 Million NOK ( = 1,066,769 Euro )in 2005 with running costs of 8,671 million NOK. They had a profit of 326.000 NOK before tax. ( 38,679 Euro.)
The Company has 2 full time employees in the Offices and around 6 on the boats – the rest of the staff are mainly summer jobs, a few full time workers in the reception area in the summer, the other workers / guides are mainly foreign guides from mainland Europe.
Now of course, the profit Whalesafari AS has varies from year to year depending on tourist numbers and costs, and the associated income from local services such as hotels and acomodation etc have not been factored in – however, it must also be noted that Whalesafari AS was heavily subsidised in the beginning, and only began showing a small profit in the mid 90´s.
Still, the company has had increasing profits since then.
There can be no direct parallel to Icelandic whale watching for a number of reasons such as -area ( Andenes whale watching is conducted on the continental shelf in Open ocean ) number of boats involved ( Whalesafari AS uses 2 in total ) but one parallel is common to both countries -Few visitors go to Iceland or Norway only to whale watch – the whale watching trips are usually part of a larger planned holiday.
It remains to be seen if any overall economic loss is caused by Iceland´s resumption of Commercial whaling – going by Tourist figures for the last years ( when Iceland has conducted a scientific hunt ) it would indicate that, in general, it should not. The Norwegian tourism figures indicate that Norwegian commercial whaling has had little effect on tourist numbers to Norway.
There may be a possible local economic loss to any whale watching communities in Iceland if a general boycott of Icelandic whale watching occurs, however, this remains to be seen over the long term.
Oops .. that should be 8,991,000 NOK and 8,671,000 NOK respectively 😉
Hi George,
‘Nine protected fin whales is not commercial whaling and well you know it. THE WHALING INDUSTRY needs to start over from a small base, training crews and setting up new markets, ramping up demand in anticipation of buying enough votes with overseas development aid to resume commercial whaling; then the real slaughter begins and it will not be nine whales.
It is quite clear from the entirety of the statement that the scenario will not remain at nine whales in the event of the re-introduction of large scale international commercial whaling via the pro-commercial whaling faction at the IWC; which is why I mentioned the vote buying, it is also why I finish the statement with ‘then the real slaughter begins and it will not be nine whales.’ Its also why the word ‘Iceland’ does not occur.
So since the statement does not include the claim that ‘Iceland does not have a commercial licence to whale’ your question is a non-sequitur.
George, we both know that since Norway, Iceland and Japan’s IWC delegations can satisfy their ‘cultural’ whaling requirements within their own sovereign waters / EEZ that they are being economical with the truth when they use it as jingoistic propaganda to back their opposition to the international moratorium.
Your third question I have already answered.
The words Iceland and Norway do not appear in the statement and the reason they do not appear in that statement is because I am refering to a scenario in which the IWC moratorium is overturned and international commercial whaling and its markets are fully operational globally.
As was recently revealed the Japanese Fisheries Ministry has failed to prevent massive over quota fishing by its tuna fleet for years; the same Ministry’s observers failed to report massive over quota whaling by the Soviet whaling fleet for decades and the same Ministry is happy to accept Tuna from countries who refuse to recognise international tuna quotas (there is also the possibility that it has been accepting over quota tuna from other countries that ARE supposed to recognise international quotas).
If there is no prospect of a commercial international market George, what is the purpose of Norway, Iceland and Japan’s delegations to the IWC attempting to overturn the moratorium? David@Tokyo repeatedly claims there is a huge potential market in Japan, just waiting for the end of the IWC international moratorium.
‘Few visitors go to Iceland or Norway only to whale watch – the whale watching trips are usually part of a larger planned holiday.’ – George McC.
George, you just clearly stated that few whale watchers go to Norway or Iceland, purely to watch whales. Most informative, Tysfjord is in Norway and has Norwegian whale watching trips for visitors, many of them will have included it as part of a larger planned holiday, makes ecological sense.
I appreciate the need for Aborigional industries to have a commercial market in the case of limited alternative industrial options.
Your attempts to equate Japan, Iceland and Norway’s IWC delegations with an Aboriginal whaling industry are as disingenuous as the Japanese IWC delegation’s infamous vote against Aboriginal whaling at the IWC in 2002.
By the way George two nice photos of whales in your thread opener, though strangely neither of them show whales being harpooned or flensed. Strange that.. on a thread supporting commercial whaling… George! You wouldn’t be employing political spin would you???…so that explains the sunny, scenic photo of a canon for explosive harpoons with its cover on….rather than blood and guts. Tsk, tsk…
It is the height of cowardice to attribute words to people in one’s arguments when one knows that the atributee will not bother to respond to correct you.
I’ve seen this quite often lately.
It was main news in Sweden as well that Iceland had killed their first Fin whale.
GP stated that Sweden had an especial responsibility to halt the hunt.
” Iceland listens more to a Nordic country’s pleas to halt whale hunting than pleas from the UK or Australia”, continued the GP spokesman.
http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/utrikes/did_13909656.asp
Well, as I have written the resumption of commercial whaling in Iceland is main news in Sweden.
My local paper wrote that many hundreds of people welcomed and applauded the arrival of the harpooned Fin whale one hours way from Reykjavik on a whaling station.
Well, what shall I say, but the pic in my paper from the whaling station shows a little girl laughing beside the whale carcass.
Anti whaling propaganda or not?( A GP pic)
Anyway, today the EU environmental ministries will discuss the subject in Luxembourg, after a request of Austria.
Fin whales are close to extinction? Well, IMO, Senator Campbell ” can’t be taken seriously on any environmental issue in the future” if he maintains that claim
It seems that the Swedish Environmental Minister and the Minister of Fisheries have made the same statement that ” the Fin whales are threatened by extinction”, according to my paper.
Ann,
As I mentioned to George and as I noted on my blog (please come back!) the extinction thing is based on the IUCN classification, which doesn’t really seem to reflect reality that well. Japan talked at this years IWC meeting of challenging the assessment (I think it is several years old… 1996 maybe? need to check again).
There is a picture (and video) here:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20628571-2,00.html
‘It is the height of cowardice to attribute words to people in one’s arguments when one knows that the atributee will not bother to respond to correct you.’
– David@Tokyo, 23rd October, 2006.
‘Another thing that I have seen today with the Iceland story and also in the past with the Japan situation is that the NGOs will release statistics such as “only 1% of Japanese people eat whale meat. that means that none of them want to eat it anymore”. Of course, the nonsense is that whale meat is simply not available to a large proportion of the population in the first place.’
– David@Tokyo, 19th October, 2006.
:o)
Hi David,
Sure I’ll drop in and talk with Y/H. It is the only chance for me to communicate directly with a Japanese.
Morning Patrick, good of you to clarify your statements again ..
But…This Icelandic Commercial License is limited to 30 minke whales and 9 Fin whales, and the license ends on 31st of August 2007.
” It is quite clear from the entirety of the statement that the scenario will not remain at nine whales in the event of the re-introduction of large scale international commercial whaling via the pro-commercial whaling faction at the IWC; which is why I mentioned the vote buying, it is also why I finish the statement with ‘then the real slaughter begins and it will not be nine whales.’ Its also why the word ‘Iceland’ does not occur.”
Where is the second License authorising a further Commercial hunt? Please cite your source, otherwise I will have to assume you are attempting an “ALARMIST FACTOID”.
Of course, Iceland will review their current commercial hunt and may very well issue a second – but it is by no means certain, no matter how much you insinuate otherwise..
“George, we both know that since Norway, Iceland and Japan’s IWC delegations can satisfy their ‘cultural’ whaling requirements within their own sovereign waters / EEZ that they are being economical with the truth when they use it as jingoistic propaganda to back their opposition to the international moratorium.”
Do not assume what I know – I asked you this question
” would YOU personally accept whaling by any of these three countries within their own sovereign waters / EEZ ?”
Answer the question please if you would be so kind ..
” Your third question I have already answered.
The words Iceland and Norway do not appear in the statement and the reason they do not appear in that statement is because I am refering to a scenario in which the IWC moratorium is overturned and international commercial whaling and its markets are fully operational globally.”
Ahh — a scenario … thanks for the clarification … or did you really mean a Scenario analysis ? just wondering …
”
If there is no prospect of a commercial international market George, what is the purpose of Norway, Iceland and Japan’s delegations to the IWC attempting to overturn the moratorium? David@Tokyo repeatedly claims there is a huge potential market in Japan, just waiting for the end of the IWC international moratorium.”
Your comment was :
” You also cannot guarantee that there is currently no market for smuggled products from protected whale species in Japan”
My questions were :
Where are the smuggled products?
And where is the market?
Cites please of proven cases of smuggling by Norway or Iceland
Peter has given you one
Cites please of proven false reporting of catches by Norway or Iceland
I have given you this one ( look through this blog )
Just in case you missed it by the way ..
“Of course they will TRY and set up markets, that´s the point of COMMERCIAL whaling ”
I note that you have still to answer those questions..
“Few visitors go to Iceland or Norway only to whale watch – the whale watching trips are usually part of a larger planned holiday.’ – George McC.”
“George, you just clearly stated that few whale watchers go to Norway or Iceland, purely to watch whales. Most informative, Tysfjord is in Norway and has Norwegian whale watching trips for visitors, many of them will have included it as part of a larger planned holiday, makes ecological sense.”
Quite correct, I have stated that “Few visitors go to Iceland or Norway only to whale watch”
Some do ( see the Transun travel comment above )
“It makes makes ecological sense.” Does it? to particpate in heavy whale watching activity? Swimming with Killer whales makes ecological sense does it? Large numbers of high speed zodiac rubber duckies and RIBS makes ecological sense does it?
Most informative indeed ..
My Question :
“19.95 for fin whale beef in Greenland. 19.95? Must be that it was on sale commercially then. But that´s ok, as it is an aboriginal hunt – or do you disagree?”
Your answer
” I appreciate the need for Aborigional industries to have a commercial market in the case of limited alternative industrial options.”
So you appreciate it.. good.. So you agree that it is ok for “aboriginal industries” ( your words )to sell whale products commercially?
Rather than appreciate Patrick, do you agree or not?
“By the way George two nice photos of whales in your thread opener, though strangely neither of them show whales being harpooned or flensed. Strange that.. on a thread supporting commercial whaling… George! You wouldn’t be employing political spin would you???…so that explains the sunny, scenic photo of a canon for explosive harpoons with its cover on….rather than blood and guts. Tsk, tsk…”
Glad you like the whale photos Patrick :O)
“though strangely neither of them show whales being harpooned or flensed”
I´ve never been on a whaling boat whilst it was carrying out minke whaling activity Patrick, otherwise you would have seen such images instead …
” George! You wouldn’t be employing political spin would you???…so that explains the sunny, scenic photo of a canon for explosive harpoons with its cover on….rather than blood and guts. Tsk, tsk…”
Excellent scenario ananysis Patrick!!! Bzzzt – wrong ..
It´s an image of a covered harpoon cannon on a whaling boat .. no more, no less, does your imagination read more from it?
Read the caption
The covers will come off the harpoon guns on Icelandic whaling vessels (image from a Norwegian vessel).
“George! You wouldn’t be employing political spin would you???…”
Of course not Patrick, you are so much better at “Political Spin” than I ever will be ..
Thanks for your clarifications to date ..
Hi George,
Do you know anything about this re swimming with the killer whales, that it is more difficult now to get contact with them as there are too many tourists? Read this stuff somewhere…
Another interesting Article
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10354-icelands-whalers-kill-endangered-fin-whale.html
Anne,
I have not been in Tysfjord since the 2004 season, though I do hear from contacts that there are many more operators offering swim with killer whale trips now. ..
Hey,
Of course ther will be no boycott of Iceland, I believe ther will be mass tourism from the US and the UK now, after that the Icelandic Review published that the famous Blue Lagoon’s water has miraculous properties slowing down the development of wrinkles…
All main media reports that the Fin whale meat will be sold to Japan…
http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16539&ew_0_a_id=239209
So , is there now suddenly an export market?
Interesting stuff over at the Greeenpeace International website from a certain BrianF in regards to a question of
” But what is Greenpeace doing next to “up the anti”???”
“As to what’s happening in Anchorage, in broad terms it’s TAKE BACK THE IWC! We’ll be launching a project in November with more details, but we want to recruit some new whale-friendly countries to join the IWC,”
Recruit?? Does he mean vote buying? No? maybe he means rig the voting? No? ..wonder what he means..
” discourage certain japanese-bought countries from showing up,”
Rig the voting? No?
“and asking like-minded countries like the US, Canada, the UK etc to sit up and do more for whale conservation.”
Canada? the seal hunting, whale hunting Canada? that left the IWC? Good luck GP ..
“If they were putting half the energy into ensuring the IWC actually protects whales as the Japanese government puts into ensureing the IWC allows the killing of whales, we wouldn’t be in a position where the conservation majority is so slim.”
Hmmmm.. I thought that was GP´s job … it´s all so confusing…
“All main media reports that the Fin whale meat will be sold to Japan…
http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16539&ew_0_a_id=239209
So , is there now suddenly an export market?”
Hi Anne,
New scientist reports that :
“Trade in minke meat between Iceland and Japan is legally possible, since both countries have a reservation on this species under the Convention in Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), says Moronuki. ”
The question is whether they intend to trade in minke whale meat and indeed, if both countries have a reservation on fin whales under CITES as well.
In reality, It comes back to the question – where is the market? Supposedly Japan, Norway and Iceland have large stockpiles of unwanted whale meat, the market is saturated and very few want to eat whale meat according to all of the NGO´s …
So which is it? have the NGO´s been wrong all of this time and there IS actually a market for whale meat after all? Or God forbid, have they been ( to use Patricks favourite word ) Disingenious?
Or is the whale meat market actually saturated as the NGO´s claim and warehouses are full of unwanted whale meat?
It´s all so confusing …..
Of course, if the NGO´s are right with their claims, then it would not be likely that Iceland will export to Japan as their markets are already full according to the NGO´s …
As usual Anne, only time will tell ..
Missed this one:
” Hey, Of course ther will be no boycott of Iceland, I believe ther will be mass tourism from the US and the UK now, after that the Icelandic Review published that the famous Blue Lagoon’s water has miraculous properties slowing down the development of wrinkles…”
Now that was funny…..
LOL, nice analysis George 🙂
Ann, after all Iceland is only going to have 30 minke whales to offer the Japan market, and only 9 fin whales. I.e, maybe it amounts to about 200 tonnes of exports?
This is hardly any whale meat when you consider that Japan’s research programmes are currently supplying by-products from approximately 1000 minke whales, 100 sei whales, 100 bryde’s whales, and 10 fin whales to the market already (roughly off the top of my head).
And then there is whale meat that is the result of by-catch as well. From memory the average level of annual by-catch here is greater than this new Iceland commercial quota, although I’m not sure in tonnage terms.
I understand that whale meat still isn’t available in markets in quite a range of areas, and the guy operating “geishoku laboratory” notes on his blog that the reality of the market is that whale meat is still relatively scarce, and it isn’t about to become a core menu item – he is pushing it in “special menus”, and in diversification terms, because there simply isn’t enough available for it to become a staple again just yet.
Of course, the anti-whaling NGOs have been saying otherwise, but given recent stockpile movements and those words from the geishoku labo representative, I have the feeling that the Iceland operator should be able to sell off this small amount of product without too much difficulty.
Hopefully the Japanese government is ready for this in terms of monitoring the meat from Iceland that hits the market here.
George,
Why don’t we take bets on what story the NGOs dream up to explain it all?
We need some kind of massive big hysterical idea.
“The Japanese whale meat industry will bail out the Iceland whale operators and pay them lots of money for whale meat so that it can be stockpiled here, cutting their profit margins, all just out of spite towards the anti-whaling NGOs and world opinion.”
“It doesn’t make any sense!!” will cry the Australians.
Hmmmm, it doesn’t quite have that kick does it? We can but wait and see 🙂
David,
“George, Why don’t we take bets on what story the NGOs dream up to explain it all?”
Not too shabby an idea… let me think about that a bit .. I´ll post my bet here when I am ready 😉
OK David and George,
I’ll post my bet tomorrow morning…got to go to the horses now!
BTW George, good that you found my comment funny. LOL!
Ok David,
Here´s my bet(s) 😉
I´ll bet you a bottle Of MaCallan Elegancia 12 year old single malt that once all the initial hulabaloo dies down ( say by the time that Japan starts in the Southern Ocean ). The major thrust by the NGO´s will be that Iceland is not an official / Legal IWC member… and all that such an opinion entails…
I´ll bet you a smaller amount ( say a glass ) that one or more NGO´s will also claim that Iceland is commercially whaling for Political purposes only, in order to further the so called Pro-whaling faction agenda within the IWC.
I´ll also bet you a further bottle of same that if Iceland does export Whalemeat to Japan ( which I doubt personally but you never know ).. that there will be a claim that Japan is buying Icelandic whale meat solely to further the So called pro-whaling faction agenda and to undermine the IWC and CITES and that of course, the whale meat market still has large stockpiles and that still nobody wants to eat whalemeat etc etc .. ( usual stuff )
Now David, you have a choice… If I lose any of these bets, I either try and send you said bottle(s) – Or .. I donate the value of said bottle(s) / + glass to an organisation of your choice – no matter which it is ..
Hi George,
” It is quite CLEAR FROM THE ENTIRETY OF THE STATEMENT that the scenario will not remain at nine whales IN THE EVENT OF THE RE-INRODUCTION OF LARGE SCALE INTERNATIONAL COMMERCIAL WHALING VIA THE PRO-COMMERCIAL WHALING FACTION AT THE IWC; which is why I mentioned the vote buying, it is also why I finish the statement with ‘then the real slaughter begins and it will not be nine whales.’ Its also why the word ‘ICELAND’ does not occur.”
There is no statement by me saying there is ‘a second License authorising a further Commercial hunt’. So there is no “ALARMIST FACTOID”.
There is however a statement by you that ‘Iceland will review their current commercial hunt and may very well issue a second’ so rather than endlessly rephrasing the same question, perhaps you should wait until 2007 before persuing the matter.
‘both countries have a reservation on fin whales under CITES as well.’ – George
No surprises there, it would be rather brazen to hunt protected fin whales without a CITES reservation lodged.
‘Large numbers of high speed zodiac rubber duckies and RIBS makes ecological sense does it?’ –
Is watching them more ecologically friendly than killing minke or fin whales? Yes…but of course that’s not the point you want make is it George? You want to suggest that all environmentalists should be shouting their opinions from hilltops, while wearing grass skirts and eating nuts and berries to avoid your disingenuous insinuations of hypocrisy, but we already did that bit.
My comment – “You also cannot guarantee that there is currently no market for smuggled products from protected whale species in Japan” – stands.
As was recently revealed the Japanese Fisheries Ministry has failed to prevent massive over quota fishing by its tuna fleet for years; the same Ministry’s observers failed to report massive over quota whaling by the Soviet whaling fleet for decades and the same Ministry is happy to accept Tuna from countries who refuse to recognise international tuna quotas (there is also the possibility that it has been accepting over quota tuna from other countries that ARE supposed to recognise international quotas).
I appreciate the need for Aborigional industries to have a commercial market in the case of limited alternative industrial options.
Your attempts to equate Japan, Iceland and Norway’s IWC delegations with an Aboriginal whaling industry are as disingenuous as the Japanese IWC delegation’s infamous vote against Aboriginal whaling at the IWC in 2002.
‘”Of course they will TRY and set up markets, that´s the point of COMMERCIAL whaling “‘ –
George.
Thanks for clarifying that George, its just an opportunity for some industrial nations to make a quick buck. Readers simply have to decide if they find that acceptable or not.
” ” It is quite CLEAR FROM THE ENTIRETY OF THE STATEMENT that the scenario will not remain at nine whales”
Here´s a bet for you Patrick .. a 50 UK pounds donation to Amnesty international ( or local branch of AI ) that Iceland will take 30 minke whales and 9 Fin whales under the current commercial Licence and that no further commercial License will be Issued to take any further Fin whales by Iceland … ( reciept from the eventual bet loser to be scanned and mailed as a Jpg to Jennifer, to be posted in a new thread in either August or September 2007 )
Put up or shut up .. ( as the saying goes )
My Comment:
“The question is whether they intend to trade in minke whale meat and indeed, IF both countries have a reservation on fin whales under CITES as well.”
Not ” ‘both countries have a reservation on fin whales under CITES as well.’ – George” as you wrote above .. …
Patrick, do not attempt to attribute quotes to me that I did not make … it kind of knocks large holes in your ” your disingenuous insinuations of hypocrisy” theory …
” ‘Large numbers of high speed zodiac rubber duckies and RIBS makes ecological sense does it?’ ”
Was the question Patrick … I note you have not answered it .. snd I will also note that it concerns killer whale watching in tysfjord .. Killer whales are protected in Norway…
So do you still consider whale watching in Tysfjord to be ecologically friendly
” You want to suggest that all environmentalists should be shouting their opinions from hilltops, while wearing grass skirts and eating nuts and berries to avoid your disingenuous insinuations of hypocrisy”
Your words again Patrick and not mine .. Why do you keep trying to put your words into my mouth Patrick? ( urghhh ) …
” I appreciate the need for Aborigional industries to have a commercial market in the case of limited alternative industrial options.”
So you appreciate it.. good.. So Do you agree that it is ok for “aboriginal industries” ( your words )to sell whale products commercially?
Rather than appreciate Patrick, do you agree or not?
Here´s a 50 UK pounds bet for you George ..
25 UK pounds donation to Greenpeace International and 25 UK pounds donation to The Shark Trust, that Iceland will take up to 30 minke whales and 9 Fin whales under the current commercial licence and that a further commercial license will be issued to take Fin and minke whales by Iceland … ( receipts from the eventual bet loser to be scanned and mailed as Jpgs to Jennifer, to be posted in a new thread in either August or September 2007 )
Put up or shut up .. ( as the saying goes )
‘if both countries have a reservation on fin whales under CITES as well.’ – George
‘Specific Reservations
The provisions of the Convention are not subject to general reservations. However, specific reservations may be entered with regard to species listed in the appendices.
When a State is ratifying the Convention or acceding to it, it may, on depositing its relevant instrument, enter reservations with regard to species listed in Appendices I, II and III. However, it may not do so at a later stage, except for Appendix-III species.
When amendments to Appendices I and II are adopted by the Conference of the Parties, these amendments enter into force after a period of 90 days. During that period, and only during it, any Party may enter a reservation with regard to any of these amendments.
Until a Party withdraws its reservation it is treated as a State not party to the Convention with respect to trade in specimens of the species concerned.
The Conference of the Parties has adopted a resolution, Resolution Conf. 4.25 on the Effects of Reservations, which recommends that a Party having entered a reservation with regard to an Appendix-I species consider it as listed in Appendix II. Therefore, that Party should issue CITES trade documents and submit reports on the trade in that species.
It is important to note that if a Party with a reservation may trade freely in specimens of the species concerned, even if it is listed in Appendix I, the other Parties may not authorize such trade unless they have entered the same reservation or the trade is conducted in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Convention.
Regarding whale species, Japan has entered reservations with regard to the Baird’s beaked whale Berardius bairdii, the sperm whale Physeter catodon, the minke whale Balaenoptera acutorostrata, except the West Greenland stock, the sei whale Balaenoptera borealis, except stocks (A) inthe North Pacific and (B) in the area from 0 degrees longitude to 70 degrees east longitude, from the equator to the Antarctic Continent, the Bryde’s whale Balaenoptera edeni and the fin whale Balaenoptera physalus stocks (A) in the North Atlantic off Iceland, (B) in the North Atlantic off Newfoundland and (C) in the area from 40 degrees south latitude to the Antarctic Continent, from 120 degrees west longitude to 60 degrees west longitude. NORWAY has entered reservations with regard to the sperm whale Physeter catodon, the minke whale Balaenoptera acutorostrata, except the West Greenland stock, the sei whale Balaenoptera borealis, except stocks (A) in the North Pacific and (B) in the area from 0 degrees longitude to 70 degrees east longitude, from the equator to the Antarctic Continent, and the FIN WHALE Balaenoptera physalus. Peru has entered reservations with regard to the minke whale Balaenoptera acutorostrata, except the West Greenland stock, the Bryde’s whale Balaenoptera edeni and the pygmy right whale Caperea marginata. Finally, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines has entered a reservation with regard to the humpback whale Megaptera novaeangliae. All the species and stocks concerned are included in Appendix I.’
– Jaques Berney Adviser, CITES Secretariat
“Whaling in the North Atlantic – Economic and Political Perspectives,” Ed. Gudrun Petursdottir, University of Iceland, 1997, ISBN 9979-54-213-6. Proceedings of a conference held in Reykjavik on March 1st, 1997, organized by the Fisheries Research Institute and the High North Alliance.
——
Just before Christmas, the Icelandic parliament approved by consensus a recommendation from the government to join CITES. Interventions made noted that it was high time for Iceland to accede to this international convention.
In accordance with the CITES Convention, Iceland has lodged a number of reservations to the listing of various species on the appendices. Reservations have been made for the following Appendix I and II species: FIN WHALE, sei whale, sperm whale, blue whale, minke whale, humpback whale, bottlenose whale, pilot whale, killer whale, white-beaked dolphin, white-sided dolphin, harbour porpoise, common dolphin and bottlenose dolphin.
– High North Alliance, 14th January, 2000
Sorry George, its a little unclear, is it Norway or Iceland you are saying does not have a reservation logged against the CITES listing for fin whales?
‘Killer whales are protected in Norway…’
Good for Norway, now why dont you spell out precisely what you are unhappy about in Norway’s expanding ecological holiday industry rather than beating around the bush, please also provide links for readers to demand strict controls for whale watching in Tysfjord rather than pretending to be a conservationist and doing nothing to publically act on your disingenuous disgust.
‘I appreciate the need for Aborigional industries to have a COMMERCIAL market in the case of limited alternative industrial options.’
That statement is absolutely clear George, if you want to elaborate on your attempts to equate Japan, Iceland and Norway’s IWC delegations with an Aboriginal whaling bearing in mind the Japanese IWC delegation’s infamous vote against Aboriginal whaling at the IWC in 2002; please do so.
‘”Of course they will TRY and set up markets, that´s the point of COMMERCIAL whaling “‘ –
George.
Thanks for clarifying that George, its just an opportunity for some industrial nations to make a quick buck. Readers simply have to decide if they find that acceptable or not.
FYI
Here´s a link to the CITES reservation list valid from 7 June 2005 (with corrections)
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/reserve_index.shtml
Note that Iceland holds reservations to :
Hyperoodon ampullatus, Physeter catodon ( or macrocephalus if you so prefer )
Balaenoptera acutorostrata
(except the population of West Greenland)
Balaenoptera bonaerensis
Balaenoptera borealis
Balaenoptera physalus
Balaenoptera musculus
Megaptera novaeangliae
Note particularly that both Iceland and Japan have reservations to :
Balaenoptera physalus, Balaenoptera acutorostrata
(except the population of West Greenland), Physeter catodon and Balaenoptera bonaerensis
Which in effects means that if they so wish, Japan and Iceland “could” legally trade in whale products from Sperm whales, minke whales and Fin whales under CITES …
Iceland could also trade Fin whale products with Norway legally as Norway also has a reservation
” [reservation applicable to populations: a) in North Atlantic off Iceland; b) in North Atlantic off Newfoundland; and c) in areas from 40 degrees south latitude to the Antarctic Continent and from 120 to 60 degrees west longitude]”
The plot thickens 😉
A quick comment before I hit the sack Patrick :
So I take it that you Do not want to make the bet?
I made the original bet – Amnesty international .. take it or leave it ..
Sorry guys,
No bet for me… not want to be involved in anything where Lamna is a part of…
Too bad, Ann.
I will lose anyway, my imagination isn’t any where good enough to dream up the propaganda that these groups like EIA present. Maybe I know too much!
Here’s another interesting article with new info:
http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Iceland_to_test_whale_meat_before_s_10232006.html
****
The meat of the first whale caught in Icelandic waters since the North Atlantic nation resumed commercial whaling was to be tested for environmental pollutants before being sold, the head of Icelandic company Hvalur said Monday. Kristjan Loftsson, managing director of Hvalur, operator of the whaler that harpooned the 18-metre long fin whale Saturday off Iceland’s west coast, said the tests were to be conducted at “independent laboratories in Europe” and “would likely take a few months.”
“I don’t expect anything dramatic to come of it,” Loftsson told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa in a telephone interview about the tests that were for mercury and PCBs.
Pending that, the remainder of the meat and blubber from the whale that was landed Sunday at a whaling station near Reykjavik would be stored in a frozen condition.
The 10-man whaling crew left Sunday again, trying to benefit from reasonably fair weather conditions.
“Whaling is dependent on good weather and light,” explained Loftsson, 63, who started as a mess boy at age 13.
The whale meat would likely be exported to Japan, but Norway and the Faeroe Islands were also options, Loftsson said, adding that he was confident there would be a market for the meat.
Iceland’s 300,000 inhabitants were not a large enough market to sustain whaling.
***
Go the IWC Secretariat!
http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/iceland.htm
We have been discussing the possibility of trade with illegal whale meat here. But according to an article that I read was illegal trade of whale meat in Japan highly unlikely.
Many attempts of illegal imports of whale meat have been blocked . Confiscated products were detroyed by incineration or burial.
NGOs often mention this possibel illegal whale meat trade on their websites, for example GP Norway.
Back to the issue with the sell of the Icelandic Fin whale meat to Japan. Guess Japanese consumer groups as Safety First, has urged for tests re the contamination.
These consumer groups seem to have quite much power since they were also the reason behind the stopped imports of Norwegian blubber to Japan.
If the Fin whale meat is contaminated maybe the contamination issue will pop up again amidst NGOs
Personally, questions arise , why did Iceland only yesterday afternoon declare that they have an export market to Japan???
Well, one thing is for certain, no big domestic demand for whale meat in Iceland, the only reason to the resumption of commercial whaling seem to be nationalistic and a concern for the fisheries.
BTW, all political parties in Iceland as well as in Norway and Japan support whaling.
Loftsson is talking as well of an export market to the Faroes and Norway, IMO those markets are only minimal and makes you wonder if Loftsson is out of touch of reality?
> the only reason to the resumption of commercial whaling seem to be nationalistic and a concern for the fisheries.
Plus that they can potentially make money from international trade in whale products, I would add.
I don’t see Loftsson saying anything particularly crazy. As I noted, he should be able to find a market to sell his whale meat in Japan if you believe the insiders in the Japanese market (I do).
Safety First in Japan seem to have a pretty dodgy website from what I have seen in the past. I believe that Mark Simmonds of WDCS is one of the “toxicologists” involved. He sure gets around! Anything goes, if it’s to push the anti-whaling movement mantle, I suppose.
Holy smokes, would you believe that Stephen Palumbi and Frank Cipriano are also involved with safetyfirst?
http://www.safetyfirst.gr.jp/english/scidone.html
(see the letter link)
Instantly, no credibility in my eyes. I’ll trust the Japanese Ministry of Health before I trust a bunch of well-known anti-whaling scientists.
” ‘both countries have a reservation on fin whales under CITES as well.’ – George
No surprises there, it would be rather brazen to hunt protected fin whales without a CITES reservation lodged.”
Once again, I did not make that statement – you did ..
Do you acknowledge that my statement was :
“The question is whether they intend to trade in minke whale meat and indeed, IF both countries have a reservation on fin whales under CITES as well”?
I pointed out much later in the thread (once I looked it up ) that Iceland and Japan actually do have a reservation to Fin whales under CITES …
that does not excuse your misquoting me of course ..
” ‘Killer whales are protected in Norway…’
Good for Norway, now why dont you spell out precisely what you are unhappy about in Norway’s expanding ecological holiday industry rather than beating around the bush, please also provide links for readers to demand strict controls for whale watching in Tysfjord rather than pretending to be a conservationist and doing nothing to publically act on your disingenuous disgust”
Actually, all whale species are protected in Norway Patrick, did´nt you know that? So does “Good for Norway” encompass all other whales as well ? (In your opinion of course )
( FYI )
In Norway, all whale species are protected under Norwegian law, but individual permits for catching
whales may be issued by the government. The Ministry of Fisheries is the responsible authority for the management of marine mammals. The principal legislation for the management of whaling is the Sea-Water Fisheries Act of 1983 (Lov om Saltvannsfiske) and the Act of 1999 relating to the right to participate in fishing and hunting (Deltakerloven).
Regarding the Killer whales in Tysjord, your comment was this : ” I have always wanted to visit Norway, it is a beautiful country and it has many wonderful, ecologically friendly holiday options, including whale watching in Tysfjord.”
My answer was this :
” Huh? Whale watching in Tysfjord is ecologically friendly? Really? Lets see, upwards of 20 zodiacs in action, upwards of 3-5 larger ships ( which are actually a lot more eco-friendly than lots of smaller boats ) Lets take a a look at Transun travel, a UK travel company – they send between 2000 to 4000 day tourists there a year – The folk join a plane at an ungodly hour in the morning, fly to Oslo, fly from their to Evenes, hop onto whale watching boats, spend a few hours on the fjord, go to Narvik for last minute shopping and then they fly home same day.
Ecologically friendly my bottom 😉 ”
A further question to you was :
“‘Large numbers of high speed zodiac rubber duckies and RIBS makes ecological sense does it?’ ”
When will you actually get round to answering my questions instead of demanding that I do your research for you?
On the subject of demanding Patrick,
” please also provide links for readers to demand strict controls for whale watching in Tysfjord”
There is a voluntary whale watching code of conduct in place in Tysfjord Patrick, developed between researchers, the lokal Kommune and the whale watching operators ( at the time of development )
Whether some, all or none follow it is, of course, another matter entirely
” pretending to be a conservationist and doing nothing to publically act on your disingenuous disgust ”
Me? a conservationist? Patrick, My credentials can be seen elsewhere on this blog – I suggest you read them… I would be honoured to be called a conservationist Patrick, I would much rather be called that than a Protectionist..
Note for example the preamble of the Convention on Biological Diversity which says “Noting that, ultimately, the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity will strengthen friendly relations among States and contribute to peace for humankind”.
Let me ask you Patrick, have you ever been to Tysfjord to see the operations first hand? If so, you would certainly not be asking me to do your research for you – in addition, a quick google search reveals many operators in the area. In case you have trouble figuring out a search string, I would suggest ” killer whale Norway” and or ” orca Norway and or “orca tysfjord ”
I have already mentioned that I consider Transun travel of the UK to be perhaps the worst offenders – maybe you did not notice? Or perhaps you just ignored it? your choice…
I am still waiting for your explanation of how you consider Transun travel´s one day Tours to tysfjord in the Norwegian arctic to be ” ecologically friendly”
Then again, perhaps it is your belief that my opinion on whale watching in Tysfjord is “disingenious” … If so, I suggest you ask Peter Corkeron´s opinion, – FYI, Peter has also spent time in Tysfjord.. Tell you what patrick, on this one occassion, I will do your work for you .. 😉
Peter, is it your opinion that whale watching in Tysfjord and Vestfjord / Ofotsjord is carried out on an “Ecologically friendly” basis ?
Here is an offer for you Patrick, If Peter´s opinion is that Whale watching in Tysfjord is done on an ecologically friendly basis, I will not say another word on the subject of killer whales in tysfjord – I cannot be fairer than that …
” ‘I appreciate the need for Aborigional industries to have a COMMERCIAL market in the case of limited alternative industrial options.'”
“That statement is absolutely clear George”
Appreciating a need for a commercial market for Inuits in Greenland and agreeing on such a commercial market are of course two seperate things ..
Patrick, I will ask you again ..
So Do YOU agree that it is ok for “aboriginal industries” ( your words )to sell whale products commercially?
Rather than appreciate Patrick, do you agree or not?
Rough translation and summary from today’s Norwegian site Fiskaren( the Fisherman):
Norway may double whaling quota.
Norwegian whalers ready to double the catch of minke whales as soon as Japan gives the green light for imports of minke whale products.
The Minister of Fisheries has for a while been working on this issue , for example, during the previous year’s WCT -meeting in Hong Kong, but without success. No more pushing is scheduled for the near future.
To get access to the Japanese market is the big challenge for Norwegian whalers, but this has been proven to be very difficult.
Japanese whalers are apparently afraid of competition from Norwegian minke whale products that will give falling prices for their own products , states Rune Frövik HNA.
George, since you asked…..
Commenting within my area of expertise, as relating to whalewatching – whale behaviour and management.
The Tysfjord operations are poorly managed, and “ecologically friendly” isn’t a descriptor I’d use for them. Just yet another example of Norway’s poor record on managing human interations with marine mammals. It’s really not their strong point.
Altho’ their coastal seal quotas take the cake there, wouldn’t you say George?
Moving beyond my area of expertise – the carbon costs associated with flying in for a day’s whalewatching seem pretty untenable to me. But maybe I’m taking a risk, raising the dreaded carbon issue on Jennifer’s blog.
Hi Peter,
Thanks for your succinct opinion on whale watching in Tysfjord.
Before I comment on your question about Norway´s coastal seals, are you refering to the tourist hunt or the 2005 white paper in general … or both? 😉
( just to make sure we are talking about the same thing )
I do think that the burning of skins instead of selling them to the local buyer is a waste of a resource in regard to the osterisen/vesterisen hunts as I´ve commented before – though as far as I remember without digging back in the blog, we both agree that Reiber´s policy there is simply smart economics – why sell them to A. for x when you can get twice X from the government ?… still rankles though ..
RE: carbon costs etc … there´s a few threads current on that subject … enter those at your peril 😉
Hi Peter,
Maybe you should post a guest blog here on Norwegian sealing, actually much is not known about this internationally, most is focused on the Canadian seal hunt.
Yes, we know those protest against the cruelty issue back inthe 80’s , espsecially in Sweden, but hardly no NGOs raise the question of the sustainability of the hunt.
Traditionally whalers and sealers have a very strong position in the Norwegian society and their marine mammal policy is based on “they eat too much fish”.
Don’t they hunt coastal seals as well for they have some lice disease that they believe will be carried on to fish stocks???
George, I said “coastal seal quotas” –
They’re set at:
25% of the point estimate of abundance for grey seals, and a bounty paid, and no a tourist hunt started as well;
13% of the point estimate of abundance (pre-epizootic estimate, at that) for harbour seals.
That’s what I’m talking about. That’s how Norway “manages” things when there’s no international oversight.
Ann, I see no point in doing a guest blog. Jennifer’s paid to do this. I’m not.
I resigned my position as a Principal Scientist at IMR in 2004, over Norway’s new policy – which explicitly links the eating-too-many-fish stupidity with ecosystem-based fishery management.
I’ve had a couple of pieces on the topic published in the scientific literature (Science, Conservation Biology).
OK, thanks Peter, will look at your articles, especially this what is meant with ecosystem-based fisheries etc.
I think most NGOs though support this view but have added the precautionary principle to this view.
Ann, there’s soemthing very interesting happening to the whole EBFM concept. See my Conservation Biology paper – the NGOs who don’t seem to notice what’s coming.
Ann,
Thanks for your translation.
Indeed, I’m sure Japanese whaling interests would not be too happy at the prospect of Norway and Iceland resuming exports to Japan while Japanese whalers still aren’t able to conduct commercial whaling. The government also needs proceeds from whale meat sales to support the research programmes and the SOWER vessel it provides to the IWC each year.
On the other hand, they could put tariffs on those imported products to help make up any losses.
Peter, that will be most interesting, I have not much knowledge on this. I have read a WWF report on Regional Fisheries Managemet Organisations and the precautionary and ecosystem approaches.
I have a quote from this report:” The majority of RFMOs remain fixated on management of target stocks. Few have made a conscious decision to broaden their management focus to include all aspects of the marine ecosystem in which these stocks exist. Where this focus has been extended it rarely exceeds attempts to mitigate interactions with threatened species such as seabirds, turtles and cetaceans.”
Hi Peter,
I´ll start by saying that seals are not my field Peter but I´ll give you my personal opinion..
“George, I said “coastal seal quotas” –
They’re set at:
25% of the point estimate of abundance for grey seals, and a bounty paid, and no a tourist hunt started as well;”
No peter, I personally do not agree with the tourist seal hunting participation …
Regarding the coastal seal quotas, are the quotas science or politically based ?
In other words, are these quotas set by the politicians based on scientific advice or are the scientists being ignored? .. your paper suggests that ( to me anyway ) Norwegian politicians are ignoring there own scientists .. is this correct? Or have I misunderstood?
Another question, how do the seal management policies in Norway fare in comparison to other seal hunts in other countries? For example, any comment on the 27.1.2005 statement on the HNA website that states :
” The rules also bring Norwegian hunts into line with those rules that govern seal hunts in neighbouring Sweden, as well as with rules practiced for big-game hunting, such as reindeer, red deer and moose in Norway and other Western countries.”
http://www.highnorth.no/news/nedit.asp?which=341
My personal opinion is that any seal management policy “should” be based on the scientific advice of the relevant scientists in the country concerned. Whether that is the case or not in Norway, I´ll let Peter inform me/us
as he has the expertise in that area ..( at least until I have the time to look up all of the relevant papers / info )
A final question Peter, I have your paper – If you have links to any online sources for other papers etc .. I´d appreciate them if you can find the time … no rush though, I have a few things that will be keeping me busy the next week or so ..
George, I refuse to get involved in one of your ongoing exchanges on this page. I pointed out above that the coastal seal quotas are an example of what, in my opinion, constitutes poor practice on the part of Norwegian policy/management.
Go to the sjopattedyrradet stuff (on the fisheries directorate website I think) to find how the quotas came about. They’re way above what was recommended by IMR scientists. Not me, by the way, guys who, as I’m sure you’re aware, I see as captives of the industry.
You want to argue that a quota set annually at 25% of a point estimate (for a survey that takes five years to complete – I’m sure you can think that one through) is somehow acceptable, be my guest.
That’s all from me.
Hi George, So is HNA comparing the Norwegian seal hunt with the Swedish???
FYI I can tell it is totally wrong and on other premises.
We kill about 75 grey seals in the Baltic Sea and maybe some 20 grey seals in the West Cosat. Oh no,we don’t hunt them because they are a threat to fisheries…. they are killed if it can be proven that they destroy fishermen’s net and fishing gear… we have a special word for this SKYDDSJAKT.
And to compare the reindeer slaughter to big game hunt never heard of that, honestly , because only a very few real wild reindeers exists in the mountins and they are I guess protected. Absolutely no hunting.
The reindeers that the Sami people own are half- domestic and there are about 275 000 reindeers in Sweden. And the amount only increases, the same goes for the moose population. The moose population has exploided since the forestry began to plant out new trees etc in the 70’s
Thanks for the info anne …
Second Fin whale was killed yesterday and shipped to a whaling station. Lots of curious people on the ground watching this circus…
Photo gallery as well on this link:( From Iceland)
http://www.fiskaren.no/incoming/article118580.ece
PS. Norway policy on predatory animals, like wolves and wolverines is also under criticism, there are now only 25 wolves in the country
Thanks Ann!
Oh – let us know if you see any articles about what they find in these fin whale’s bellies. I suppose they are coming to the end of their feeding season?
David,
On the pics marine researchers are taking meat samples, don’t know yet anything about stomach contents…
The resumption of Icelandic commercial whaling is hot stuff right now in the Nordic countries and has once against caused diplomatic trouble between Norway and Sweden(Who btw are the friendliest neighbours).
The Swedish Gov. states that the resumption of the commercial Icelandic hunt is a provocation against the IWC.
The Norwegian Minister of Fisheries counters back and states this is a legal action based on sustainability , and gives her full support to Iceland.
Again, as usual Norway and Sweden are arguing about the marine mammal policy…
The Swedish Gov’t urges the Icelanders to immediately halt the hunt , but has not protested against the Norwegian hunt.
The Fisheries Minister continues ” that Norway will not resume the hunt of Fin whales, we have already enough of Minkes”.
However, the Head of the Small whaler’s Association, Jan Kristianssen is dissatisfied that Norway has not used this opportunity to start up a research hunt of white beaked dolphins.
http://www.fiskeribladet.no/default.asp?lesmer=4573
Interesting update –
It appears that Loftsson was in such a hurry to scam a fortune in ISK, he forgot to do anything more than get permission to whale.
Apparently the whaling station in Hvalfjordur had no permits to process meat…so it was claimed that the meat would be processed in a fish processing factory nearby…..unfortunately it seems the fish processing factories are prohibited from processing meat from mammals……