Steven Goddard has published the following list of New Year’s Resolutions for Climate Scientists:
- I will admit that warming has been much slower than we expected
- I will admit that recent sea level rise is nothing unusual or threatening
- I will admit that our forecasts of declining snow cover were wrong
- I will admit that Arctic temperatures are cyclical, and that we have no idea what will happen to Arctic ice over the next 50 years
- I will admit that our forecasts of Antarctic warming have been a total failure.
- I will admit that Polar Bear populations are not threatened
- I will admit that climate models have demonstrated no skill, and are nothing more than research projects
- I will admit there was a Medieval Warm Period
- I will admit that that there was a Little Ice Age
- I will stop pretending that we don’t have climate records prior to 1970
- I will admit that the surface temperature record has been manipulated and is contaminated by UHI
- I will stop making up data where none exists
- I will honestly face skeptics in open debate.
- I will quit trying to stop skeptics from being published
- I will admit that glaciers have been disappearing for hundreds or thousands of years
- I will stop telling people that the climate is getting more extreme, without producing any evidence
- I will admit that hurricanes are on the decline
- I will admit that severe tornadoes are on the decline
- I will admit that droughts were much worse in the past
- I will admit that efforts to shut down power plants have potentially very serious consequences for the future
- I will pay for my own tickets to tropical climate boondoggles like Cancun, rather than improperly using taxpayer money for political activism
- I will admit that there is no missing heat
- I will admit that temperatures have been cooling for at least the last decade
- I will publish the raw data and not lose it.
- etc. etc. etc.
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
Just more framing, memeing, and verballing by a known whinger.
How childish – you can easily construct an alternative “I will” list for sceptics – how about just three-
“I will not bluff pensioners in town hall meetings with false data”,
“I will not publish crap” – funny as iterative – let’s start with Goddard’s list, and
“I will stop making death threats”.
you truly are pathetic luke……add those to the list by all means…….seems to me they sum up your side of the argument perfectly. BUT SHOOTING OWN GOALS HAS ALWASY BEEN A strong point of the global warming movement.
when teh ANU started making comments about death threats i knew the game was up for your faith.
Those death threats happened years before and as many in public life will agree they are not uncommon ( although despicable of course).
On your side of course we are threatened with doomsday scenarious where death is a certainty despite the fact that the cold undoubtedly kills far more than the heat.
With the sharply rising cost of energy thx to renewables etc, there will be many many deaths caused by the “solutions” to a non problem.
couple that with more starving people due to food being used to provide inneficient energy sources and its easy as a sceptic to sit back and believe that it is indeed warmers who should be charged with crimes against humanity….So yes luke add those to the list they fit perfectly…..
Luke, the death threats were never really proved to be genuine as you can see by the lack of action by the authorities.
On the other hand the constant call for declaring “denial” a crime and send people to jail or silence them is far more disturbing as it’s quite possible given certain political outcomes.
Lately Luke, you proved that you got no arguments but models and other nonsense in other words, nothing!
Yep,
That darned climate just refuses to co operate with them Luke.
Blaming inconsequential death threats that almost everyone in public life cops at some time or another doesn’t change the fact that the modelled projections are just not eventuating.
Darn it! Climate change and climate variability must not have as much to do with manmade C02 as those projective models hypothesised. Bloody unco operative climate decided to just go ahead and do something else instead….Now it’s not even managing to stay inside the ‘lower end’ of the range….how un coperative and unpredictable can it possibly get?
Casting aspersions on others in an ‘oh so superior’ manner doesn’t do anything factually sound either.
Neither does resorting to personal attacks….that is rather similar to empty death threats don’t you think?
Political point scoring is also completely useless.
By all means add them to the list.
I don’t like death threats, personal attacks or published crap either.
It doesn’t change the facts or the emerging real time data.
Death threats: Well luke, as the bastion of reason in the AGW camp [says it all really], how many people have died from sceptic action and how many from AGW driven policies?
Luke, old feller,
You better follow the lead of Pierrehumbert and start forsaking the catastrophists. It might help you keep your job.
Ray reckons Jimmy’s wrong:
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/more-views-on-global-warmin-and-arctic-methane/
And Steve is embarrassing the way he points out the lies the catastros tell:
http://www.real-science.com/religion-mindless-dishonest-superstition
Oh Johnathon – the death threats are real and personal and against family – and the Federal police have the information as it is. We’ll see.
Luke
OK, I hold my piece until something concrete comes out of it.
I never said there were no crazies on either side, bur please, why wait years to report?
But if proven wrong I apologist unreservedly.
“apologise” I meant of course
1. I will admit that warming has been much slower than we expected – to some extent but also low Sun and PDO shift – it’s still warming AND WITHOUT a solar driver !!!!
2. I will admit that recent sea level rise is nothing unusual or threatening – who said it was – we’ll see – science still at play
3. I will admit that our forecasts of declining snow cover were wrong – huh?
4. I will admit that Arctic temperatures are cyclical, and that we have no idea what will happen to Arctic ice over the next 50 years – bullshit – what sceptics are shit scared of
5. I will admit that our forecasts of Antarctic warming have been a total failure. – says who? What forecast? Pity about the Southern Ocean warming and all that edge melt though eh?
6. I will admit that Polar Bear populations are not threatened – well wait a bit
7. I will admit that climate models have demonstrated no skill, and are nothing more than research projects – utter crap and filler
8. I will admit there was a Medieval Warm Period – easy enough
9. I will admit that that there was a Little Ice Age – easy enough
10. I will stop pretending that we don’t have climate records prior to 1970 – WTF?
11. I will admit that the surface temperature record has been manipulated and is contaminated by UHI – LMAO AND ROFL – pity about Watt’s won analysis showing it doesn’t fucking matter – LOL
12. I will stop making up data where none exists – sceptics especially
13. I will honestly face skeptics in open debate. – well they need to get their arse along to science conferences and stop scaring pensioners down at the school of arts – NOT LIKELY !
14. I will quit trying to stop skeptics from being published – hahahaha – especially McLean et al and have the good taste to avoid E&E
15. I will admit that glaciers have been disappearing for hundreds or thousands of years – easy enough but what’s the summary position overall – increased melt
16. I will stop telling people that the climate is getting more extreme, without producing any evidence – says who?
17. I will admit that hurricanes are on the decline – yep easy – AND likely/are to be/already more intense
18. I will admit that severe tornadoes are on the decline – framing – no data on the topic
19. I will admit that droughts were much worse in the past – LMAO and ROFLO – take NOTE ! MWP HAHAHAHAHAH
20. I will admit that efforts to shut down power plants have potentially very serious consequences for the future – yea sure – so let’s be cautious
21. I will pay for my own tickets to tropical climate boondoggles like Cancun, rather than improperly using taxpayer money for political activism – scientists don’t set the locations and aren’t activists
22. I will admit that there is no missing heat – yes it’s in the deep ocean – but hey let’s invoke Goddard’s bullshit Arctic argument – it’s cyclical guys
23. I will admit that temperatures have been cooling for at least the last decade – BULLSHIT !
24. I will publish the raw data and not lose it. – why so we can have goof ups like UAH crap analysis – what an embarrassment
25. etc. etc. etc.
Johnathon – I was told the most rank, personal and disturbing threat reports by a friend from CSIRO the other day. He was actually quite shaken. Quite recent – if it were your wife and kids on the receiving end you would be utterly outraged.
No Luke – just BS. – same sort of BS as I’ve been trying to convince and ex about Chem Trails.
Luke
I can only reiterate, there a crazies around, there is a degree of seriousness that has to be there, although I agree the police should pursue all, but they treat every threat on its seriousness, nearly said merit.
It is a crime and yet they do not follow it up in all cases, I take your word for it and my sympathy to your colleague.
We all had some kind of nasty threat against us at some time or other, even if it was only from a disgruntled neighbor or customer.
I would take it from someone I know far more seriously than an anonymous call or an Email.
But again I will wait and see, we all handle things differently.
Great rebuttal of Goddard’s points luke; an all-time best.
I haven’t shot nobody> Don’t even carry a gun. Ain’t done nothing wrong> Just having fun.
Even with Hansen’s perpetual imaginary Arctic hot spot (based on no data) GISS {Luke’s official temp} still can’t conjure a warming trend.
It doesn’t matter what Luke admits.
Little Lukey,
make the PLEDGE, NOW!!!
OOPS, sorry, I temporarily confused you with someone who wanted to be taken seriously!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Trouble for Luke is this. It is the lunatic left thugs who actually knock people down and try and kill you at their rallies.
Like the bashings and smashing at parliament house Canberra by union thugs after the rally was adressed by Beazley and Combet etc.
A young police woman was bashed and repeatedly kicked in the head by these gutless swines and only recovered after months in a coma and hospitalisation.
The public and police suffered the same smashing and bashing at the mad lefts 20/20 rally in Melbourne. Richard Court the then WA premier’s car was surrounded by these leftwing thugs for 20 minutes until the police could fight their way through and rescue him.
These rallies were a low point for the mad fanatical left in Australia, but for decades these union thugs have shown their willingness to bash and smash the person just because they don’t like your point of view.
But don’t try and change Luke because he’s beyond hope and has locked himself into a hopeless position ( he knows it) and always resorts to swearing ( even in print) to try and bolster his case.
BTW the number one resolution should be, “I now understand there isn’t a chance of mitigating AGW ( this from a true beleiver only) because China, India and the developing world will not cooperate and reduce their soaring co2 emissions.”
If you are a beleiver in AGW this is the most important resolution to make because it guarantees that you acknowledge that this FIXING the climate is a total hoax and a fraud.
Simple kindy maths proves this easily , once again.
The fraud is you Neville and your role here is simply to uncritically parrot whatever Wattsup or some other disinformation site has told you to say. You don’t think – you’re a robot.
Let’s not try to divert Neville that your fellow travellers revel in making death threats to scientists. I’ve been to your sceptic rallies – don’t lie to me about the tone of comments you hear in the corridors and from your seats by a good many people – egged on by the spruikers. Violent stuff – your mates mate ?
BTW one doesn’t believe in AGW – you assess the evidence – I assume you think that the radiative physics used by the US Air Force somehow doesn’t work.
To be fair to China, India and the developing world the above resolution should read ” will not and can’t cooperate to reduce their soaring co2 emissions.”
Let’s face it there are at least a billion people remaining in those two countries alone who want at least some of the trappings of our modern lifestyle and life expectancy . Without increased energy they will always remain where they are.
Just another reason why a climate fix is impossible whatever we try and do in the developed world. Just more kindy maths again.
Luke true conservatives don’t smash and bash. Unless they are trying to defend themselves conservatives don’t usually take the law into their own hands, certainly not by smashing and bashing.
If I heard anyone at any meeting threatening to hurt or kill anyone I would report it to the police and so should you.
But let’s face it Luke the kindy maths argument wrecks anything you can throw at it, because the maths disproves any chance of mitigation of AGW.
BTW I accept that a doubling of co2 should produce some extra warming, but so does Lindzen, Spencer, Christy, Carter etc.
But I also maintain that R&D + new inventions and new technology is the only way to win out in the end.
The last thing we should be doing is trying to reduce co2 emissions because it can’t work. Before a new cheap viable energy source comes along we must spend our borrowed money on trying to find a solution and be ready to adapt to CC when needed.
We have to do this because it is the only path that makes any mathematical sense. Perhaps we should try the new safe lastest tech nuclear PS in the interim. It’s okay by me and supplies France ( but mostly older tech) with about 75% of her energy, so it must work here as well.
You tell ’em Luke.
The list is just silly.
EG. “reports of declining snow cover.” This is not a common, nor pivotal point in the debate.
It’s like saying “It has never been proven that Tony Abbott wears womens clothes”.
It creates points of arguments that only exist because they are included in the conversation, regardless of whether the point is relevant or not.
Being responsible for our actions on this planet does not need to be backed up by spin and science, it is what it is. Get over it.
In talking of future energy demand in Asia etc, one should take into account present unmetered energy use. Third World squalor and beggary – as well as appearing quaint and authentic to the luvvies of the developed world – are presumed to make less of a “footprint”. The countless children disfigured by kerosene pressure stoves, the breathers of dung-smoke, the world’s scrub burners and twig collectors – these multitudes might settle for the disgrace of having an official carbon footprint.
New study finds UHI in S. Korea responsible for over half the warming.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/29/uhi-in-south-korea-responsible-for-over-half-of-the-warming/#more-53862
The AO index is looking positive at the height of solar cycle 24, means warmer winters in the UK?
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/daily_ao_index/ao_index.html
Luke,
YOu are making a fool of yourself- even more than usual.
Just more proof that we can’t make a scrap of difference by reducing our tiny co2 emissions by 5% by 2020. Some of the numbers from the developing world are staggering for 2010. ( India, China etc)
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/chinese-economic-miracle-fuels-surge-in-carbon-emissions-6257556.html
yet in the decade that this dramatic increase in CO2 occurred global temps remained static.
John you know the other side says that the temp flatlining for a decade or more is only tempory and the heat isn’t lost but is stored somewhere, like the deep oceans.
Other scientists tell us it has nicked off into outer space, perhaps to annoy the moon or space debris perhaps, yuk yuk.
I just hope I live long enough to see the last nail driven into the coffin of CAGW, but I’m sure Luke, Gav and pals will dream up some other scary horror story to frighten the idiots with.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2011/12/28/even-the-warmists-dont-believe-in-global-warming/2/
You are dead right as usual Neville
The alarmist frauds are that besotted with their con job that they cant even describe the problem in honest terms
Making a deliberate definitional change from GW to Climate Change is the best indicator evidence yet for what manipulating and devious con job it is.
BTW whilst the GW con job is an example what activists are able to achieve on an international scene, one sees the same activist mentality corrupting the way professional societies function in this country.
One in particular involved with the computer sciences has been captured by the mix of leftists and second rate academics…all peddling an agenda that will see a take over to achieve a centralist and controlling cause..that will do the industry/public/tax payers no good at all..and achieved by manipulating the democratic functions of these societies.
The Minister: what really gets me is the uprising of activist groups like GetUp, Care2care, Causes ( http://www.causes.com/causes/237387-seal-clubbing-please-sign-this-historic-petition/invitation?recruiter_id=44243715 ) , petition online : ( http://www.petitiononline.co.nz/petition/oppose-the-new-zealand-government-food-bill-160-2/1301 )
People are blindly signing petitions online daily yet most of these sites offer no proof, they just pull at the heart strings of the gullible.
i have a friend and if you visit her facebook it’s all about signing petitions, chemtrails, FEMA camps, HAARP, and awakening in 1212.
I tried to point out that HAARP is a reseach facility and pointed to the 158 peer reviewed papers that reference the HAARP facility yet it was like water off a ducks back – she’s totally believes that HAARP is a military facility that causes earthquakes in South America.
BTW – She also firmly believes in man made climate change and we should close down all coal power.
John Sayers Yes you are so right.The gullibility of people simply beggars belief.
I didnt realise one could sign up to so many causes at once.
Also, many of these causes, and professional insitutions are NOT run on basic democratic principles, but a complete perversion of it, engineered by the self same activists and leftists.
Whilst there is no standard definition of democracy, there are some clear universal principles ..one example of which is that adopted by the Danish.
http://www.dfs.dk/inenglish/educatedemocracy/factsheets/principlesofdemocracy.aspx
The professional society I was referring to in the above, holds elections via processes that FAILS 3/5 principles..and it did so in a carefully orhestrated campaign that prevented there being any public debate or public forum or equal availaibility of information, such as who the members are, and what are their interests.There was and never has been a policy debate
Even though we have electoral rolls for State, Federal, and Council elections, for most proefssional societies the composition of the membership is not freely known to electors.
Nor are the electors allowed to hear or read a policy platform from any prospective candidates…it tends to be mainly a shoot out of academic credentials ..which of itself doesnt constitute a platform of anything..and provides no evidence of organisational/policy ability what so ever
This means that determined leftist activists and academics of exactly the same type that sets up and runs Getup and WWF etc have taken over these professional societies …and particularly the computer based one referred to.
The way they go about it is very devious and manipulative, and involves the use of social media to by pass the normal electoral processes.
and if you go to their “About” page you get a fairytale of statements but no real information about who these people really are.
What snot – what utter drivel “One in particular involved with the computer sciences has been captured by the mix of leftists and second rate academics…all peddling an agenda that will see a take over to achieve a centralist and controlling cause..that will do the industry/public/tax payers no good at all..and achieved by manipulating the democratic functions of these societies.”
Jeez there’s some loons on here. Do you guys ever think about the dogshit that you type.
hmmmm I wonder what skills you might need to use climate models.
Licence sceptics not guns !
As usual you ignorant cretin you have totally missed the point..and as usual by not reading whats in front of you
It wasnt about the technical skills required by industry etc to perform high ICTand particular that required for climate models, or any complex modeling for that matter. It was about how the so called professional societies that may represent them (and for which, thankfull,y member ship is not compulsory).. have been captured by the leftists and activists and they all exhibit the same delusional characteristics
…just like the resident village idiot herein.
Are you a HAARP and Chemtrails lefty Luke or are FEMA camps about your limit.?
Been thinking about my resolution regards you die-hard skeptics cluttering the blogs. Nev you gotta realize I do most of my campaigning face to face and so I don’t need updates from wuwt etc.
Today while walking the creek reserve before breakfast we met local folk pulling weeds in long grass. I left them with a hint about a good cleansing scrub fire and doing it often since they failed to respond to my multiple victa concept. Since we mowed our grass this morning the sun has just about killed the rest.
Back to you slackers, I compare your Wattsy with Nigella. By contrast; over lunch we watched Kate Burridge on ABC CH24 (repeat from Big Ideas) debating trends in language based on influences such as our social media including the internet, Twitter etc. This lady really knows how the rhetoric goes.
Btw, UHI or otherwise those South Korean records probably pan out about the same as elsewhere after some regard for sloppy measurements.
gotta hand it to Nigella – famous Dad – Lord Lawson – and this:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/390257_307570185921806_156490407696452_1352927_431049114_n.jpg
On the subject of language, notice how conservatives/skeptics are always “die-hard”, while their opposite numbers are usually “committed” or “passionate”. Ask any ABC lady who really knows how the rhetoric goes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AOuKfQFhiPw
Mckitrick’s evidence to the Canadian Senate inquiry
If only Combet and his camp followers/advisers? had the brains to sit still for a moment and listen.
A devastating indictment of how the IPCC/UN processes have been captured and corrupted by shonky academics and leftist actvivists …the same class of animal thats taking over by deceit and manipulation professional societies and other systems of public involvement …
You will be safe with this Luke, you dont have to stretch your limited reading and comprehension skills …just STFU and listen
PS Dont forget to send it onto your CSIRO mates..they might learn something as well..in fact the set of four submissions should be very enlightening to anyone with an open mind and interest in the failures of the processes.
Here are some good holiday videos covering different aspects of CC, co2, planet’s history etc, etc.
Some of the best sceptic scientists are listed here and many of the videos are a precursor to Copenhagen, therefore about 2 years ago but very interesting.
http://www.co2science.org/video/cop/cop15/science.php#daleo
I remember the trepidation I felt leading up to Copenhagen but after that blue between Obama, China, silly Rudd and others on the final day I thought of David Daniel Kaminsky singing “Wonderful, Wonderful Copenhagen” and I had a giggle.
Very fitting because Danny Kaye played the roll of one of the truly great fairy tale writers Hans Christian Andersen.
Here’s Danny at about 5min. 10 secs singing the song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24SPhbpeAzE
Pity the clueless Juliar idiot announced this year that she wanted a co2 tax to “tackle CC and take action on CC”. What a useless mob of numbskulls we have wrecking our country for the next couple of years.
Thx Minister for that link, how anybody could listen to that and still place faith in anything the IPCC and its conspirators have to say is beyond me. It flabergasts me that the likes of luke and gavin can be so convinced in the “science” when there is obvious doubt and as mckitrick puts it the cost of the solutions so heavily outweighs the benefits.
the ironic thing is many of these warmers i am sure believe they are saving mankind but the reality is they are impoverishing them and causing great hardship around teh world that has already killed many and will continue to kill many more.
perhaps 2012 can be a year of enlightenment for the warmers if they just allow some common sense to get in?
You have hit the nail on the head yet again
The testimony of Professors Clark, McItrick and Vezier to the Canadian Senate dated 15 Decemebr 2011, makes it quite clear what a fraud the whole IPCC GW scam is…and why they have no qualms about not being part of a Kyoto Mk 2.
If only we had politicians and advisers of the same calibre.
Where are the equivalents of Mckitrick/Clark/Vezier in Australia.
Happy New Year Everyone!
One good thing about New Years Eve is that everyone sleeps in the next morning and if you get up early the world is unusually quiet.
This morning walking through the bush early I could hear a lot more bird and animal activity [between White Cockatoo screeches] than normal. Fruit Dove’s and other low frequency calls, particularly.
It’s been amazingly cool for midsummer. 22c max yesterday.
Let’s all hope for a little more wisdom in 2012 from the lawmakers and bureaucrats WRT perceived “catastrophes”, that they scrutinise the IPCC a little more closely and sceptically, generally keep up with the peoples’ thirst for climate knowledge, promote a more balanced discussion and stop handing out such glittering prizes to the catastros.
Hope springs eternal! And no, I didn’t see any porkers flying this morning. ☻
Hi John Sayer,
All good on most fronts, but there is something a little sus about HAARP, however many scientific reports are made about it . Remember that a once very respected CSIRO churns out continual AGW reports.
Foremost would be the question of why it is managed by the company which manufactures such toys as Patriot Missiles. What is in their interest ?
Have you seen the amateur video of the strange lights in the sky preceding a major quake in China recently ? ( I make the connection, not the video-takers. )
Or perhaps it is just Aliens, softening us up for a takeover after all.
I think a reform of the charity status of some of these pressure groups may be the answer.
Until that is fixed they have no accountability for the direct and collateral damage they cause.
Minister – Mckitrick/Clark/Vezier – mate I just kacked. Really!? zzzzzzzzzzz
McKitrick’s testimony is simply selective crap. These guys should attend the annual CSIRO climate science meeting and chance their arm against some serious scientists i.e. the back room boys and girls – not your political celeb types. They simply wouldn’t survive.
You have no idea. Just a blog slops gatherer like Neville. Schooled in what to say – not how to think. Denialism is now just an industry with no idea of right/wrong, up/down, north/south.
Gee Lukey and you’re such an amazing thinker, I don’t think. You claimed that not only was our recent drought part of AGW ( like your prophet Timmy darling) but that the 1940’s drought could have been caused partly by AGW as well. This when co2 levels were perhaps in the range of 290 to 305 ppmv at the most. Say from 1900 to 1930’s for example, to help set up the 1940’s drought.
Both the CSIRO and BOM have now back tracked on that attribution of increased co2 emissions in relation to recent cyclones, droughts or heavier rainfall events.
Didn’t stop the idiot Brown making a complete fool of himself after cyclone Yasi, when he claimed that the damage was caused by increased coal mining. Gee what a great thinker he proved to be, nearly up there with big HIPPO Al.
Minister thanks for that senate address by McKitrick, great to see a sane person for a change giving a point of view. Agnostic John Howard ( on AGW) wrote a very thoughtful forward for his latest book.
Here’s another interview he gave explaining the nonsense of the HS.
Methinks it is the alarmists here in Australia, along with their idiot camp followers and toadies like you, that wouldnt stand up. I mean you cant even read and comprehend with a degree of accuracy beyond primary school.
“Selective crap” my arse…your type will peddle any old shit so as not to be found out…
Of course you and your mates in the CSIRO could publish something of value in an reputable journal …preferebly one that hasnt already been corrupted as being a mates reviewing mates club.
When they have finished with that they could turn their minds to their own tolerance of the ineptitude of the IPCC…so ably exposed by Mckitrick over many years…which will for ever stand as a symbol of shame for climate science generally. Their collective silence on this will come to haunt them.
@ Resident Dipstick
” … annual CSIRO climate science meeting and chance their arm against some serious scientists”
You mean those people that supplied cross-section diagrams of Surat Basin geology to the meeja and deliberately left out the coal seams ? You mean THOSE clever dicks ?
Gee Luke,
I wouldn’t be so sure about that.
We have been working with some of those ‘back room scientists’ re the MDB for over 12 months.
Not the political celeb types….I quite actively dislike them…(as you have pointed out many times they deliberately use the upper and outer limits of every piece of research).
However…. we haven’t found ourselves out of our depth or in a position where we feel like we’re not going to survive their amazing brilliance and amazing talents.
While they are very nice people and are doing their jobs to the best of their ability, I don’t think many of them have a practical bone in their bodies.
We regularly make their jaws drop because it hadn’t even hit their radars that there are other ways to look at things and much simpler, more practical approaches to take.
Their work is also completely hamstrung by the legislation they are committed to work from.
The back room boys and girls (as opposed to the celebs) are also quite candid about the way their work is severely limited and that they have been forced to have a rather narrow focus.
If you begin from a false assumption, it doesn’t matter how brilliant you are….you will end up with a false conclusion.
So don’t get me wrong….I like these people and they are doing their best….but they are definitely not the be all and end all to our problems….far from it actually.
While they have to work under prescriptive government legislation….they’re not going to deliver anything but what the legislation has required them to do.
I concede that they are very good at their jobs….but that’s about it…..they are not demi gods that we need to worship….and their so called ‘brilliance’ is rather narrow and limited to say the very least.
Those limitations are twofold:
1) As already stated, they are hamstrung by ‘terms of reference’ and legislation and,
2) Their practical knowledge and experience is severely limited….like very severely!
BUT!!!
PS….I still think they are very, very nice people.
J.S. While relocating the link I now note that several of the posts on Youtube now refer to HAARP.
debbie
Don’t want to destroy your faith in human nature, but anyone can be nice for a time, specially if they are paid for interacting with people.
notwithstanding all I said they can still be really very nice people indeed.
“Foremost would be the question of why it is managed by the company which manufactures such toys as Patriot Missiles. What is in their interest ?”
I understood that HAARP was initially built at the site of an over the horizon radar system experiment established during the cold war that would give the US early warning of a missile attack from the USSR thus it’s relationship with missile technology. It is currently controlled by the Air Force and Navy research departments and the University of Alaska.
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/b/f/6/bf663fd2376ffeca/2010_Senate_Minority_Report.pdf?sid=ea9e07a5b55edf528fc3851a39e79bdb&l_sid=27695&l_eid=&l_mid=2336201&expiration=1325407768&hwt=2924e65315a5afce4109b2f5fcecaddd
Perhaps Lukey old son we could throw your lovely boys from the CSIRO into a bull ring ( and anyone else they want) with the 1000 or so dissenters, who think this it is all cooked up crock, and a total embarrasment to science.
This is in addition to the phantom four (McKitrick/ Veizer/Cook and Patterson) who appeared before the Canadian Senate on Dec 15th 2011
We could televise the debate, and have the worm running as well.( no puns intended)
Listen to Minister go – what a ranting little coot – throw CSIRO into a ring with 1000 dissenters – oooooo – oooooo – why not 100,000 or a million. Let’s ask 1 million questions in a gish gallop and then declare victory. That sounds like a good old debate doesn’t it.
No sceptic would be game to attend a CSIRO science meeting to present their “theories”.
And we have the con artist Neville dipping his finger in a few drought data sets and doing a home spun analysis – what a wank. You’re not a scientists bootlace matey – try thinking instead of quoting Wattsup – we can read it ourselves you know.
Hey Minister – I just cracked a rib kacking at the scientists who made the 1000 list. Keep going – it’s priceless. You guys don’t even know do you – and the multi-coloured green climate at the front was the clue – a rag tag collection of codgers co-opted for the BIG list. ooooo oooooo
Glad you have responded in your usual ignorant way…it achieves two otucomes, advertises the list and the report and secondly just exposes more people to the ignorant lay- about who is trying to defend the undefendable, and thereby reveal just how desparate they and he is.
Not a bad list anyway when it includes serious Nobel prize winners… not the charlatan socalled Peace variants like Pachauri and Gore
…”rag tag collection of old codgers” indeed.
As for the CSIRO alarmists …any real Nobel prize winners in their team?
J.S.
Given that the US Govt ,who fund HAARP, still hold publicly to the belief that CO2 controls the word’s weather, should they be wading in the deep waters described here ?
With any regard for the possible stuff ups and potential disastrous side effects ?
All this so that the military can look in someone’s backyard and see / maybe control, a rocket.
Sorry I remain frightened and unconvinced of the altruism involved here.
http://www.viewzone.com/haarp.exec.html
It is a long read and in a way I wish I had never read it.
With a simple layman’s knowledge of how atmospheric pressures and such work, are the forces necessary to set up the ‘mirrors’, etc not going to -at least- pop jet streams up and down ?
And at worst , WHEW.
Thanks for that summary Luke of the drought/co2 attribution nonsense you tried to con us with, it proves that I was right and you were wrong, just admit it.
Lukey what amazes me is that you don’t seem to understand any concept of shame, but I suppose that’s always been a reserve of the left throughout all of this CAGW delusion.
It’s a pity we can’t set up a real debate on climate with scientists freely chosen by both sides. If it was properly promoted as a TV series I’m sure it would draw a sizable audience.
The first week could be an overview of climate change throughout the planet’s history, then the more recent glacials and interglacials and finishing with perhaps the last 200 years post the Industrial revolution. GHG history would be a part of this first episode of course.
Next we could have a weekly episode of perhaps 1 hour duration 1.covering temp change, 3.SLR and OHC, 4.drought,floods and extreme weather events 5. Our sun’s solar energy production and how it changes over time 6 , 7, 8 whatever.
This could go on for many episodes as long as both sides were involved week on week and then have a summary episode and let the people decide whether we should have a co2 tax or not.
The cost of this would be minimal unless some scientists insisted on travel and accomodation costs well above the norm.
I’m sure it would have a good audience as long as both sides had fair input into each specialist episode.
I mean this is supposed to be the “GREATEST MORAL CHALLENGE” of our age according to Gore, Rudd, Blair, Gillard, Wong, Combet, Garrett, Brown, Milne, WWF, ACF, Greenpeace etc, etc. So why didn’t we have a proper and informed debate, because we’re the poor bunnies who have to cop it in the neck.
We’ll be paying countless billions forever, just flushing money down the drain for a zero return and we can’t even have a say in the matter?
We can guarantee that whatever Aussies do it will not change the climate or temp by a jot.
Even the Flannery numbskull, you know your Chief Climate Change Commissioner agrees with that conclusion. So why are we doing it?
BTW here’s our Chief CC Commissioner at his loopy best. All about Gaia’s brain and we ants and who should breed etc.
I’m sure this gives Luke and Gav a warm inner glow and fills them with pride and admiration for this particular dear leader.
An impecable choice of loon to represent the Labor govt, who send him and Steffen etc around Australia, meeting after meeting to inform the great unwashed about CAGW.
Neville, Unreal that link, unreal and we pay the bloke to ..?
Go back to the tree kangaroos Tim, but next time be careful what the ‘fuzzy wuzzy angels’
put in your tea. They seem to have mind altering substances.
Or does Canberra do that to people ?
OT – it appears Peter Andrews has an alternative theory on weather events:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/more-storms-on-the-way-unless-we-learn-to-manage-the-land-20120101-1ph66.html
But Luke,
CSIRO IPCC etal were more than happy to use those drought data sets when it suited them. What’s the difference?
The point remains that the driver of climate change and/or weather events is still highly questionable.
The projective models looked for a strong C02 signal.
The real climate seems to be disagreeing.
It now won’t even stay inside the lower end of the modelled parameters.
It is only possible to call that wiggles and blips and isolated events for so long. After that it’s time to accept that maybe those brilliant scientists, consensus or not, may be incorrect.
Despite what you seem to think, they are just as fallible as everyone else.
They also are mainly employees and have bosses who they must answer to.
To assume their cause or their motivation is somehow more noble or superior is rather naive of you to say the least.
Watching that You Tube clip of Flannery was quite disturbing.
The look in that mans eyes as he was spraying that garbage out was unsettling..and to think this nutter is being paid out of the public purse to sell this garbage.
Are there ANY normal well balanced, reasonable and rational people left in this stupid GW game
Super organism?
Sounds more like a super brain orgasm!
I’m sure Mr Flannery sees himself as one of the leaders of his global organism.
Neville, truly the lunatics are running the asylum, after 2 minutes listening to this bloke could any rational person be anything other than sceptical of his “climate commission?” and everything associated with CAGW?
But if Timmy was the leader of some mad, delusional religious cult it wouldn’t matter except for the the innocent kids that always suffer from within those cults when they blow up.
But he is our Chief CC Commissioner for pete’s sake and is the govt’s first salesman on CAGW, so how do they get away with this and why is the media so tame and compliant?
Just imagine a similar mad blurt by a coaliton appointed spokesperson of this seriousness.
You would never hear the end of it until the looney involved was forced to step down.
Of course that is what should happen regardless of who the person was and whatever the political situation.
Yeah, great link to the great Australian loon, flannells, Neville; that part of YT also has some great ripoffs of the Greens and Getup and this one of some guy breaking up with his girl:
Cohenite
What about sending that YT to Combet/Gillard and all his GW cronies
Peter Andrews also appears rather delusional.
Much of what he refers to is SOOOO last century.
We are not perfect but we are all learning as we go.
The problems re cattle were mostly solved when their watering facilities were removed ( and yes extracted) from the river many years ago.
I don’t know much about his river, but the bidgee and the Murray run brown mostly because:
a) They are infested with carp and,
b) because of forced flushings to SA in the wrong seasons when the vegetation cover is inadequate to control the minor flooding at the chokes.
There are also similar issues when we have major flooding in Summer/Autumn.. . especially after a drought.
Soil erosion due to poor agriculrural practices are also a last century problem.
So I have to conclude that at the moment the Greens are rather clueless and also rather duplicitous!
More brilliant stuff from the CCC Commissioner and don’t eat your pet but hug them for extra warmth. Geeez I miss the Bolta.
Cohenite
What about sending that YT to Combet/Gillard and all his GW cronies
You think they bothered to watch or listen?
If they did, we wouldn’t have carbon tax would we?
And I was sure we were supposed to be in a bone crushing ice age by now….we’ve been assured by the BEST Nobel prizing winning septics … hmmmm…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-02/victoria-sa-on-fire-alert-as-temperatures-soar/3754888 … heat waves – can’t be?
Debbie to discuss CSIRO’s drought research (SEACI) you’d have to have some degree of intelligence and aptitude for a science discussion – where you have the ability alas the other knuckle dragging Neanderthals inhabitants that religiously parrot what Wattsup or some other septic disinformation site told them to say aren’t up to it. Essentially too stupid. Couldn’t rub two neurones together – not capable of rational thought – have swallowed the Kool Aid. They’re actually impressed by a list a 1000 codgers.
Yes Debbie, even a human-free landscape is never free of erosion. The bottomless black top-soil on the Georgina, Diamantina and Cooper flats has travelled great distances for thousands, if not millions of years. That’s why it’s the best nutrition around when it gets flooded.
BTW, any thoughts on what your “bullroarer bird” might be?
“heat waves – can’t be?”
Luke, we know how you just live for drought and disaster but even someone so disastrously dumb as you must admit that this is standard weather [or even cooler] for this time of year.
It’s standard practice in Melbourne and Adelaide to have northerlies so hot that you can’t stand on the beach and a couple of days later when the high arrives in the bight it’s so cold you can’t swim. All the while it is pleasant sea breezes in Qld and NSW.
You are quite aware of this but you just can’t help being “obtoose”.
Debbie – Peter Andrews’ river philosophy is to slow the rivers down with wetlands. The original Darling river had wetlands 50km wide by 20km deep and 50km apart. The paddle steamers burnt them all out to allow for the steamers to get through thus changing the river flows.
He had many arguments with the academics who insisted that water wouldn’t migrate sideways across a paddock yet Andrews proved them wrong. His system is to keep changing the flow of the rivers by adding fallen trees, rocks even blocks of concrete, to slow the flow so the water can then move out into the paddocks and keep them moist even in severe drought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx94ZVxmoVU
Thanks for saying I have some ability Luke….although most of the time you to tell me I haven’t got a clue and many variations thereof.
However….it still doesn’t change the point that the climate has slipped outside of even the lower end of the modelled parameters.
Personal attacks are just personal attacks, they have nothing to do with the actual issue.
You can’t scoff at people when they question the veracity of AGW modelling and then use a very typical Australian Summer heatwave (it’s bloody stinking hot here!) as a reason why they’re wrong.
Well…you can I guess….but it doesn’t prove anything at all.
We have had heatwaves like this for a lot longer than AGW theory….and I can remember way worse ones in the 70’s and 80’s than any we have had recently. A quick study of our climate history also reveals there were even worse ones before my memory and even my parents’ memory.
The ice age scoff is also not the point as you must know. What is being pointed out is that evidence exists that could easily be modelled to prove the opposite of AGW….no one here is staking their life or their political agendas on it.
The problem is that the driver that is earmarked as the reason for climate change is apparently not behind the steering wheel anymore.
The 1000 codgers (as you call them) have a rather impressive list of credentials between them as well as a huge amount of experience.
They deserve our respect the same as anyone else with those type of credentials.
It certainly doesn’t mean they’re prophets or anything like that….same as your back room boys and girls.
They’re good at their jobs but they do not have all the answers.
Luke,
You remind me of Gabi Hegerl. And she didn’t turn up for the debate, Pat Michaels said later.
http://tomnelson.blogspot.com/2012/01/climatologist-considers-faking-sick.html
SD,
It’s a bittern. I looked it up the other day and have now forgotten which bittern.
We call them ‘bull birds’ or ‘bull roarers’ because of the very distinctive sound they make.
We have been admonished that they are severely endangered yet they have re appeared this year in their 1000’s.
Apparently they used their wings and the jet streams to get out of here during the drought years along with the whistler ducks and several other ‘endangered’ species of water birds including cranes, snapes and waders.
They are well and truly back in huge numbers….the ducks to the point where they have created damage to crops….tens of thousands of them have re appeared.
The Gavin’s of this world need to read these things in a bureaucratic report before they believe it’s true 🙂
It has now been reported…so the Greens have gone strangely quiet about the birds 🙂
The Commonwealth Environment Water Holder however are still trying to claim they had something to do with it…hahahaha!
That’s wonderful Debbie! It sounds like the Australasian or Brown Bittern. They make a deep roaring boom.
It’s good to hear they are in such numbers. We very rarely see them here. I have seen them about 3 times in 20 years, last time about 4-5 months ago.
The science of ecology and climate go hand in hand. Plenty of uncertainty but that doesn’t stop the doomsayers.
Flannery should be made to take another trip down the MD with a knowledgable sceptic and have some of these home truths presented to him.
To make matters even worse for the poor dears.
From the NOAA National Climate Data Centre
http://reasonabledoubtclimate.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/screen-shot-2011-12-31-at-7-42-53-pm.png
So at the same time that Juliar and Combet et al, have just destroyed the main competitive advantage that we have.. cheap power.. at a cost we cant afford, to achieve no measurable outcome of any use…. we have …official data showing that temp trends are down.
What ever they are drinking, smoking, or even injecting, I want some…second thoughts, no I dont.
I could end up looking like Flannery on YT.
SD
They are rather shy birds.
We get to hear them more than see them…although we have seen a lot of them this year.
There’s a rice crop right near our house….there are heaps of them in there, we hear them every evening…whenever anyone comes to visit, they always ask what the sound is.
They are also hanging out in one of our lowland areas (that has been dry for at least 9 years but is now teeming with life) and we see them in the trees there. They like to squabble with each other when they are in the trees….a different sound again.
I watched that Flannery YT video….I think Minister might be right….he looks high on something and so very convinced about his (assymetrical) view of the global organism that I don’t think a trip through the MDB would help.
He might get a bit too over excited about the ants and the bees 🙂
Got a massive explosion of them here too:-)
Just for a start….he would have to admit he might have been mistaken….that ego is way too massive I suspect 🙂
After a brief review of this page I will say that I concur with Peter Andrew’s ideas right down to his willows.
That done; its most important to remind our Debzie, those PS types are probably all working hard for us, you and me despite their constraints and lack of this or that particular hands on experience at the grass roots. The ones I know in the higher levels with science and environment backgrounds,have families, kids between schools and a fair range of health problems to boot besides an almost constant demand for their skills interstate and over seas in support of programs other than their own.
So be fair and admitas individuals, you don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes
Very good column from the Bolta visiting the holy land. Some how he always has another way of telling a tale that is unique. Yet so does Steyn and they only start with a choice of 26 letters of the alphabet to compile each story, just like the rest of us.
But then again there’s Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Charles Dickens etc I suppose. Mark Twain was no slouch as a wordsmith either.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/in-israel-a-glimpse-of-the-eternal/story-fn6bfkm6-1226230011583
SD I think if Timmy ever went down the Murray in his Tinny again someone should give him a framed copy of the MDB rainfall anomaly graph from 1900 to 2010.
Fully below average rainfall for the first half century and mostly above for the next 60 years.
The average rainfall for 1922 to 1946 ( 25 years) is about the same as our recent drought 2000 to 2009.( 10 years)
The average rainfall from 1935 to 1944 ( 10 years) was only 402 mm, well short of 2000 to 2009. Hard to beleive but it’s true.
http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/change/timeseries.cgi?graph=rranom&area=mdb&season=0112&ave_yr=15
Fellows; admit, as individuals we have the luxury of anonymity here so casual thinking becomes the norm.
PS folk can’t do that even though it may take a while before a team gets enough cohesion to wind up with polished reports all round. But imagine what happens when one keen assessor builds enough reputation to move on to say the private sector. The pipeline for big national projects suddenly gets smaller.
Switching between TV channels with the mere touch of my remote buttons allows me to watch our Sam whacking tennis balls down in Brisbane seconds after leaving the guys slogging away in the Hopman’s Cup over in Perth. Managing our radio spectrum well in the public interest enables that. Imagine what happens when the whole lot is done by the military.
I once joined a task force to relieve old timers in the comms biz of that precious bit in the airwaves we now dedicate to mobile phones and so a lot of long hop radio links disappeared. At no time were there enough technicians or new gear to do the shutdowns on schedule.
Many systems run on borrowed time as demand for the next thingy quickens. Interference has to be managed what ever the medium.
Gavin said
“I once joined a task force to relieve old timers in the comms biz of that precious bit in the airwaves we now dedicate to mobile phones and so a lot of long hop radio links disappeared.
Gavin I admit I now read your posts only for amusement value, and believe me they are worth reading for that only.
What on earth are you talking about “dedicate airwaves to mobile phones and so a lot of long hop radio links disappeared.”?
Since when did UHF and above made a “long range hop”
“SD I think if Timmy ever went down the Murray in his Tinny again someone should give him a framed copy of the MDB rainfall anomaly graph from 1900 to 2010.”
That’s very good Neville, yes that would be a good start. Plus a total sum-up of all the futile planning that his stupid predictions cost us. Like desal plant building, discarding dam construction, MDB water buybacks and dismantling etc.
Not to mention the carbon tax…
Jonathan, I think gav is trying to tell us what a great job NBN are doing.
Specially by not using that old analog spectrum.
JW; beware, my implementation style was not so cramped after various campaigns on the streets. As it is today with private anti smoking or pro NBN sorties, I go for the individual eyeball to eyeball or straight down the phone. Back then too I negotiated a lot and wrote very little so nobody was unnecessarily embarrassed.
It goes like this when you get to know your stuff. Australia is a big place so we invented microwave networks, DRCS, STLs, mine and electricity grid control, much of it via AWA electronics with transceivers around the 800Mhz Band. At one stage in development our Spectrum managers decided a minimum hop would be 20km. A typical studio transmitter link in my restructure areas could be 30km with possible interference over water from 60-80km away.
However “hops” can be considered generic with trunk routes when band population is maximized with repeated channels for say Cairns to Hobart. I recall Bass Strait microwave hops being up in the Ghz bands however this doc illustrates more recent development.
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item.phtml?itemId=267030&nodeId=17a100ab37fd9c56d9b583ce8f8f7f95&fn=Chapter%208%20-%20Microwave%20Network.pdf
SD; only a pollie would want to ignore the growing complexity of radio data transmission in our more densely populated areas. It’s not like mining where you just dig it up and cart it away. Managing an increasingly scarce resource is a very very serious business. I had to lean heavily on very practical individuals on both the inside of licencing and the outside.
Other engineers and technicians are the lifeblood of good reform. Also the MDB people are not inventing the wheel today despite that 10 billion thrown at it by some hopefuls. In the end we are all handicapped till we grow that essential expertise beyond the team building phase.
Nifty Nev back to the ye olde whole of the MDB ruse – take your eye off him for a minute and he’s back at it. The olde obfuscation ruse. And speaking of such (and given we’re not in a bone crushing ice age yet)….
Good to see a fellow geologist evaluating Plimer.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/cherry-picking-contrarian-geologists-tend-to-obscure-scientific-truth/story-e6frgd0x-1226233605954
It’s your “expert” guys – hahahahahahahahaha
Now, which frequent poster here fits the profile offered in this nice little check list?
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/recogbad.htm
Yes Gavin,
Public servants are people too.
Some of them are also very nice and very dedicated people.
Doesn’t have one iota to do with the point I was making.
At the moment we have a bureaucratic machine in place that is self serving and completely refusing to listen to people who have generational experience of the MDB, including getting their hands dirty and being productive.
The PS types (as you call them) are just doing their jobs.
The machine is also behaving in the same manner re AGW.
We have a serious disconnect operating and it is using rural communities as scapegoats or cannon fodder in a silly unproductive ideological debate that is more about securing funding and votes rather than working on practical solutions.
Re Peter Andrews,
His philosophy re slowing the rivers is sound.
I objected to his use of old and mainly sorted problems re stocking and cropping practices.
He also misses the biggest problem re river turbidity. . .the invasion of European Carp.
Luke – all Mike Sandiford showed was how ignorant he is. He’s still quoting US Geological Survey Gerlach 1991 references and has absolutely no idea of undersea volcanic activity research since then i.e. Hillier & Watts (2007) who surveyed 201,055 submarine volcanoes estimating that a total of 3,477,403 submarine volcanoes exist worldwide.
Here’s some old codgers telling how it is to the Canadian Senate.
http://justgroundsonline.com/forum/topics/kyoto-protocol-based-on-fraud?commentId=3535428%3AComment%3A332645
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hDKSkBrI-TM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AOuKfQFhiPw#!
Hunter;your midi link reveals a remote analyse who at best is only a writer. What most folk want is just a simple statement re is it harmful? Try “watch your sound dosage”
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/spldose.htm
Well now Deb; ‘We have a serious disconnect operating” Do we? Think of the tax man, the Health or Education Dept then perhaps Defense.
So who is really mucking the waters? I reckon its only irrigation folk who want the rest of us to blame those damned carp
Come on Hunter thats bit rough to single out him
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/recogbad.htm
Most of the so called GW effort to date would fail those tests in one way of other.
Pity the UEA didnt know about them as well, plus the IPCC evaluations of the science whereby they used WWF et al, glossy material as PR’d science, plus the HS frauds, shonky treatment of temperature records…and on it goes.
I assume that if the ARGC was doing its job properly, then all Grant recipients would have to sign a contract that includes a requirement to behave inaccordance with what is generally outlined in the check list.
remote analyst – far removed from the practice
Geezzz is this a doomsday barking mad cult or what? Billions are supposed to have died by 2012, perhaps the news services are still on Xmas and New year holidays and haven’t informed us yet.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/31/be-careful-today-and-tonight-billions-may-die/
Gavin,
Tax man, health, education and defense?????
What on earth have they got to do with Climate change and the MDB????
Errrrrrr….perhaps nothing? Like absolutely and completely and totally and universally nothing??????
Re the carp….you are kidding aren’t you?
Or…. maybe because you haven’t seen anything written in a bureaucratic report you just assume us irigators are making it up????
You also seem to think we’re doing it to make your PS types uncomfortable?
Why on earth would we want to do that? We’re actually way too busy to be bothered cooking up schemes to annoy bureaucrats and PS types 🙂
I did notice that you mentioned the return of the birds once it was ‘officially’ reported bureaucratically, however, sneered at me when I had mentioned it beforehand.
John is impressed with a bunch of arch denialists talking shit on Youtube. ROFL !
The undersea volcano thing is utterly stupid on so many fronts. Better go twang your banjo.
On which front is the undersea volcanoes stupid Luke?
Gavin and All.
Re European Carp.
I have spent most of my relaxing time and much of my working time from my earliest memories walking, boating and working along the many streams of the MDB.
It is a fact that when the Australian agricultural landscape was at its most degraded, ie from 1930s to the 1950s the waters of all of the streams of the lower Basin ran mostly clear.
We never took drinking water to the river. We simply drank from the stream and dipped the billy in when it was time for a cuppa.
By the mid 50s Governments, Graziers and Farmers were all working to improve soil management and farming practices and this has and still is ongoing.
The results to those who have been around long enough to remember how things were compaired to today are wonderful to behold.
Prior to the late 60s the only times when the rivers were muddy was in floods. A fact we know hasn’t varied for thousands of years, because that is how the flod plains were formed. The sediment from the mountains and foothills were deposited by the rivers in flood time.
That is why the plains mostly slope away from the river.
Muddy rivers during floods is the norm and has been for centuries.
I have an abundance of happy memories spred over all of my years up to the late sixties of fishing these clear waters; even of being able to see large Murray Cod just idling in a sunken river red gum. Or watching a yellow belly take a lure at 5 or 6 feet.
That has been impossible since the introduction of E.C.
When E.C. were released it is believed somewhere near Mildura from a lake in which they had been breeding for some time.
They quickly proliferated and proceeded to unleash an environmental disaster across the MDB.
All of the reed beds, particularly the extensive “ribbon weed beds” were destroyed.
It was the ribbon weed beds that partly filtered the water but more importantly provided shelter for the fresh water shrimp and fish finglings.
The E.C. also destroyed the habitat of the fresh water mussel and nearly wiped out the fresh water lobster.
The whole ecology of our MDB river system has been badly changed and the water has never been clear since.
It is a sad reflection on so-called conservationalists and the Greens, that while they have been making false claims about the MDB and its management, these charlaton protectors of the environment have never, to my knowledge, even mentioned the environmental disaster that has been caused by E.C.
If the foolish Politicians had the sense to spend some of the money totally wasted on water buy-backs, on funding a biological control of E.C. they would achieve an everlasting good outcome for the nation and the environment.
Some day soon we will knock some sense into the Politicians who have got water policy totally wrong.
Pikey.
John,
Luke and the perpetual bedwetters are only interested in undersea vents that suit their side of the catastrophe story even though they don’t know whether they started yesterday or a million years ago.
They love the uncertainty that allows them to predict catastrophe but to achieve those dubious GCM predictions those uncertainties suddenly either become facts or get ignored completely.
The likelihood of Plimer’s uncertainties cannot possibly be allowed.
John – isotopes, ice core records and the pattern of increase which beautifully inverse models the growth of fossil fuel emissions. Mate you must believe in fairies at the bottom the garden if you’re that uncritical that you think it’s volcanism. What gets me about deniers is the slavish devotion to stupidity promulgated by old codger scientists way off the reservation.
Have a glancing look at the bulldust in the 1000 scientist list – Vincent Grey “EXPERT” IPCC reviewer – cripes anyone can be a reviewer. Even you ! Self proclaimed expert more like it. And Hissink ! – ye gods and little fishes. I gave it away after that point – it’s just a petition with bloke down the pub signatures.
Pikey – the sediment in the lower MDB is from the original land clearing events and introduction of domestic stock.
No it doesn’t Luke, There is no isotopic difference between our CO2 and Volcanic CO2 and our output of CO2 accounts for 3% of CO2 – where do you reckon the rest comes from – the fairies at the bottom of the garden??
As I said you warmists just keep denying that volcanic activity accounts for the increase in CO2 and you all reference Gerlach 1991 and the US Geological Survey statements Gerlach has made because it suits your theories, unfortunately it isn’t the truth.
It has been estimated there are 139,096 active submarine volcanoes worldwide producing 24.2 GtCpa of CO2 as opposed to our 7.8 GtCpa.
Correction Luke,
SOME (repeat SOME) of the sediment in the lower MDB is from original land clearing events and introduction of domestic stock.
Floods traditionally shift sediment anyway…as Pikey correctly points out that is one of the major reasons we have floodplains and rich alluvial soils.
Damages to river banks from stock was addresed a very long time ago.
Minimum tillage, new planting methods and strategic planting of trees and native bushes and grasses have also gone a very long way to addressing the problems caused by ‘over clearing’.
Interestingly, it was the government/ bureaucrats of the day who insisted that the land was totally cleared. Most of the original settlers in this area would have prefered to not clear in that manner. Unfortunately they had to choose between totally clearing their land or losing either their land or their water allocation…or both.
The European Carp is the great big white elephant in the room that ‘the authorities’ have mostly ignored and they are a major contributor to issues with river turbidity and also the raising of toxic sediments in the Lower Lakes.
I can also remember the dramatic changes in the reed population and the clarity of the river water when these fish infested the system.
It’s easy to see what they can do in a very short time frame when they get into our house dams and our irrigation channels and paddocks….they are an absolute pest.
We have to regularly clean them out of our channels and dams as they create massive turbidity problems. As soon as they’re gone, the water instantly clears up…Within a few hours.
I always thought that they were originally in Lake Burley Griffin? However I don’t remember where I got that information?
Will look it up 🙂
Pigs botty John – don’t you find that nature is remarkable to keep the annual CO2 increase going in this regular fashion. Don’t you find volcanism just so regular – pullease ! http://www.agu.org/pubs/pdf/2011EO240001.pdf
and from a realclimate comment
Brian Dodge says:
5 Aug 2011 at 1:40 PM
@ janama — 5 Aug 2011 @ 1:17 AM
Don’t you think it’s too much of a coincidence that Casey’s “1000 potentially active subaerial volcanoes worldwide” have been hypothetically increasing their emissions, starting around 1850, precisely matching the rate of anthropogenic fossil fuel emissions? Something that has never happened in the last 400000 years, according to the Vostok CO2 record.
Casey is also wrong in his assertion that volcanic CO2 is indistinguishable from fossil fuel emissions. Concentrations and isotope ratios of carbon, nitrogen and sulfur in ocean-floor basalts SARAI et. al 1984 found “The isotopic ratios of indigenous carbon and nitrogen are in very narrow ranges, -6.2 [per mil; symbol didn’t paste] relative to PDB and +0.2 & 0.6460 relative to atmospheric nitrogen, respectively.”
This is less negative than the atmospheric ratio, which declined from -7.6 in 1980 to -8.2 in 2008. The Mid Ocean Ridge is the largest volcanic structure on earth, 65,000 miles long. Its erupted basalt created the ocean floor, average age ~70 million years, thickness ~2km, area ~1.8e8 km^2. The volume is therefore 3.6e8 km^3, and the eruption rate is ~5km^3 per year. The is equivalent to one Mount Pinatubo every 2 years – Pinatubo was the largest eruption since Novarupta in 1912, and caused no measurable change in atmospheric carbon isotope ratios.
http://eprints.ifm-geomar.de/5789/1/1043_F%C3%BCri_2010_CarbonReleaseFromSubmarineSeeps_Artzeit_pubid13619.pdf FÜRI ET AL.: CARBON RELEASE AT THE COSTA RICA FORE ARC
“We estimate that the carbon flux (CO2 plus methane) through submarine fluid venting at the outer fore arc is 8.0 × 105 g C km−1 yr−1, which is virtually negligible compared to the total sedimentary carbon input to the margin, …the implication is that most of the carbon being subducted in Costa Rica must be transferred to the (deeper) mantle, i.e., beyond the depth of arc magma generation.”
The ocean ridge carbon has the wrong isotope ratio to account for atmospheric CO2 rise. Plate margin subduction zone volcanism removes more carbon than it emits. Even if you accept Casey’s glorified guesswork that Toba emitted 494 Mt of carbon, that is a small fraction (<2%) of the 26 Gt of carbon from fossil fuels and other human activities. We can't possibly be missing 50 Toba scale eruptions per year, (or 500 Tambora scale eruptions). Pinatubo didn't even make Casey's scale, and most of us noticed that eruption and its effect on climate.
Don't ya just love denialism !!
Deb; my taxman etc = MDB authority or Climate Change dept = our bureaucracy in general but I don’t see you bothering about the former. Now prompt me if you must but I can usually smile or chuckle at your endeavours here not sneer if you don’t mind.
Pikey; your Murray at Mildura during the 60’s was considerably better looking than the Darling above their junction but nothing like the Goulburn round Yea from a trout fishing point of view.
Back then the Murrumbidgee too was a tad clearer than the Murray down the Hume Hwy or was it the Yarra? See, my recollection doesn’t count either.
Gavin,
Why would I bother about the former when it has nothing whatsoever to do with this post and the topic we are discussing?
Nada, zip zero!!!!
I chose to reply because of your dismissive comment about the invasion of European Carp.
When Jen decides to post something here about the tax man, health and defense, I imagine that would be the time to discuss their value?
Chuckle….sneer….go ahead and split hairs and pontificate….it hasn’t proved anything worthwhile discussing.
I would be much more interested in the reason why you wrote that European Carp are a non issue in the MDB?
Luke – Gerlach’s paper doesn’t even mention or reference Hiller Watts (2007)!! All he talks about is mid ocean ridges.
http://www.earth.ox.ac.uk/~tony/watts/downloads/HillierWatts2007GL029874.pdf
There is also the question of Liquid CO2 from submarine volcanoes.
http://www.oar.noaa.gov/research/papers07/venting.html
Luke,
As usual you are talking piffle.
The flood plains were laid down centuaries before 1788.
Also the amount of clearing on the slopes and plains was quite minimal.
Contary to what you and your Green mates claim.
Read some history for a change and come back when you have some idea of what you are arguing about.
Pikey.
Deb; your eyes are going to be the most outstanding feature in our little glass bowl.
Now it’s time for each MDB irrigator to be granted (mandatory) a bigger share of the carp with every river drop. Soon clean them up hey. I know loads of dead fish make a very good organic fertilizer
Btw I’ve independently followed our carp invasion since the first impacts were announced.
Pikey; imo we can’t get away from docs like these
http://www.water.nsw.gov.au/Water-management/Basins-and-catchments/Murray-Riverina-catchment/Murray-Riverina-catchment
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Previousproducts/1370.0Feature%20Article12002?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=1370.0&issue=2002&num=&view=
Don’t talk crap Pikey – sediment tracing by radionuclides or paleo-dating by optically stimulated luminescence aren’t greenie stuff. Stop denying and covering up for your massive acceleration of landscape erosion processes.
http://epsc.wustl.edu/courses/epsc484/olleyandwasson03.pdf
http://www.dairyingfortomorrow.com/cds/Understanding%20Dairy%20Catchments/PDFs/Prosser%20et%20al%202001.pdf
Climategate keeps giving!
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/03/paging-mike-mann-your-dendrochronologist-will-see-you-now/
and from comments
“tallbloke says:
January 3, 2012 at 4:54 am
To the tune of ‘Modern Major General’
By Gilbert and Sullivan (Pirates of Penzance)
I am the very model of a modern climatologist
I’m partly statistician, partly palaeo-phrenologist
I’ve temperature readings from thermometers coniferous
my data are the same (or not, well, maybe) as Keith Briffa has
I bought them from a bloke who brought them hotfoot from Siberia
and mixed them with some algae from the mud in Lake Superior.
When counting different isotopes I’m really in my element
and sucking up to journalists from Guardian Environment
I know what makes the treerings from Siberia to the Rockies tick
And I can make spaghetti and transform it to a hockeystick.
My data’s got dark matter that would shatter a cosmologist
I am the very model of a modern climatologist
H/T Geoff Chambers
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2010/4/9/the-modern-climatologist“
Another Ian I read that dendro email yesterday, but let’s face it only a few delusional diehards beleive in the HS these days. Stupid fools like some of those that haunt this blog and elsewhere.
It was the main IPCC feature graph for a while until McIntyre and McKitrick showed that it was the fraud and con of the decade. Of course one of the biggest shonks big HIPPO Al just loved the graph as well before it’s ludicrous conclusions were exposed and everything hit the fan.
The emails also show that one of Mann’s co authors had his doubts about their conclusions as well, so we know that it was all a giant con to fool weak minded drongoes like we have here as well.
There was a MWP and real scientists have shown that different parts of the planet were as warm as today or warmer during that time.
I’ve read in the past that studies show the Rocky Mountain’s treeline was 300metres higher during the MWP and Alaska was at least as warm or warmer than today.
Let’s not forget that this was the graph used to show the MWP before the Mann HS was invented. This graph was used by the IPCC in earlier reports.
http://www.co2science.org/subject/other/figures/temp1000.jpg
Not much AGW to report for December. 0.13c. 0.01c up on Nov.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/
Minister,
Most AGW hypesters fail that list by point three. The hardcore posting here fail ~ point 2.
Luke?
Those reports make no mention of Carp and very little mention of improved practices.
They’re working from a particular hypothesis and using a particular frame of reference.
The first one also seems to conveniently ignore the fact that most of the degradation must have been caused by the urbanisation of the Queanbeyan/Canberra area when you consider the area that is studied.
No one is arguing that European settlement has not changed river and inflow behaviours. Of course it has. It was deliberately done.
Neither is anyone arguing that some mistakes have not been made.
It is not a catostrophe however. In the big picture, the advantages have far outweighed the disadvantages.
Also, much of what these reports highlight has already been mitigated.
The deposit of sediment from pre European settlement far outweighs what has happened since. That is why we have floodplains and rich alluvial soils. To pretend otherwise or to over exaggerate mistakes does nothing to improve the system.
Ignoring the damage by European Carp beggars disbelief. River turbidity and the stirring up of toxic sediment where it tradtionally settled is largely caused by Carp. Just because there are no funded bureaucratic reports or well read Phds on the subject does not mean it is not true. It just means that for whatever reason, the subject has been largely ignored.
Ill conceived water savings projects that use excessive pumping at the expense of gravity are also contributing.
No offense, but I have decided that the prevailing bureaucratic mentality re the MDB is a ‘toilet mentality’. It’s like they think they can just push a button at the storages and then magically ‘flush’ all the problems away to the ocean.
It beggars belief that you think you can get a MASSIVE slug of sediment post-European with no consequences. That sediment now in the channels re-entrains every hydrograph event.
Why is it that these brilliant ,analytical scientists at CSIRO etc ,with knowledge and brilliance far in excess of ours, continually allow their brilliant research to be condensed into politically inspired ,stupid reports ?
Reports, such as the MDB plan , which appear to have NO scientific base at all.
Reports on climate predictions ,which seem to be generated in Hollywood ( and in Algores nonsense were )
Are they so busy with groundbreaking mathematical studies that they do not notice ?
Are they aware, but need sensational muck to gain funding?
Sorry Luke, but in spite of your assertions to the contrary, I just think they mostly are on another planet. Probably helping Tim find Gaia.
Deb, those bitterns love irrigation and wandering around rice farms.
Greens don’t like irrigation – so the birds are endangered perhaps.
Ian, Interesting comment of yours on the bitterns in the rice The rare times I have seen them here they have been hiding in rice-like sedge on the banks with their beaks pointing skywards in a cryptic position. Do you see them do that in the rice fields?
Luke?
What’s your point and what’s your solution?
Also questioning your definition of ‘massive’. Massive compared to what exactly?
No one said there haven’t been boo boos. When they’re correctly identified and we apply human ingenuity and some common sense, long term thinking, it’s amazing what can be done.
Practical minded people who have worked in MDB water management for years know that ‘just flushing it’ will achieve nothing and will in fact cause even more problems further downstream. You do realise don’t you that ‘just flushing’ especially in the drier months (which is completely unnatural & exactly when they want to do it) will just cause further shifting of sediment. Guess where it ends up?
A little hint. . .
Water follows the rules of gravity:-)
SD, yes you do. Last year, when there was a lot of water and cover on the roadsides here in the Riverina , they had a scary habit of flying directly at the car when surprised. Dazzled by the lights I guess ,as were a lot of ducks.
If you had time you dropped the lights, if not you pulled up fast and ,of course involuntarily, ducked.
Like coots and pied stilts , it is very hard to get near them, but I will try to get a photo.
Deb, the carp are a serious and obvious conservation matter. And we must know by now that our Green Betters are indifferent, perhaps even hostile, to conservation.
This could be a new years resolution for the far left BBC, please listen to one of the best journalists you have on the payroll, instead of all the mad delusional lefties.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/03/thought-provoking-words-for-the-bbc-and-the-guardian-from-a-podcast-by-the-bbcs-michael-buerk/#more-53712
It looks as though luke has undertaken a new year’s resolution to be useful again and has started to provide some literature to back up his views; the volcano essay by Gerlach I had not seen before but the fact remains that estimates of submarine volcanic activity remain that, estimates.
Given the inherent volcano estimations the argument about whether humans are responsible for most or all of the increase in CO2 levels then becomes a tortured argument dealing with isotopes, methods of calculating trends and balances of the various sources of CO2 and sinks [a difficult task since we only roughly know ACO2 increase and CO2 increase but not natural CO2 or sinks].
The fact is it is only this aspect of the AGW debate which the pro side even have a foot in the door; that is, humans may be responsible for the modern increase in CO2; there is no other credible evidence to support AGW.
Yet, even this aspect of AGW theory is getting tattered despite the best efforts of Ferdinand who is otherwise a sceptic. Recently Murray Salby noted that there may be a natural explanation for CO2 increases; Salby has promised a paper shortly but in the meantime has been subject to the usual character assasinations:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/08/murray_salby_and_conservation.php#comments
Lambert says Salby’s analysis is faulty because he falls into the same trap that McLean fell into [will they ever let that go]; namely first differencing to [inadvertently] remove the trend. Lambert uses this graph from his mate Tamino:
http://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/dco21.jpg
However, as usual, Tammy is not to be trusted and it is this graph which should be considered, since it is what Salby refers to:
http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/graphs/co2/co2-emissions-atmospheric-rise-quirk.gif
The difference is Tom Quirk’s graph is not differenced but simply plots the yearly values of human emissions [ACO2] against annual variations in total atmospheric CO2 [TACO2]. This clearly shows that ACO2 has little bearing on or relationship with TACO2; no further statistical fiddling including differencing is required.
“As recently as 2005, for instance, the UN said there would be 50 million climate refugees by 2010.”
It is very awkward of Michael Buerk, isn’t it? And he’s from the Beeb!
Perhaps at GetUp school they could start experimenting with postmodern tense-mixing.
“The UN confirms that as recently as two years ago there will be 50 million climate refugees.”
Gore could then say: “Buy carbon credits from GIM now or there will be a global climate disaster five years ago.”
CRU might like to predict: “Snowfalls will be a thing of the past seven years ago.”
I just love denialist bunk like this “The fact is it is only this aspect of the AGW debate which the pro side even have a foot in the door; that is, humans may be responsible for the modern increase in CO2; there is no other credible evidence to support AGW.”
Despite a huge slew of evidence dismissed by the biggest list of contradictory and internally inconsistent but, but, buts ever.
Licence sceptics not guns !
Congratulations luke, that must be up there with the all time quickest relapse of a new Year’s resolution ever:
“Despite a huge slew of evidence”
But none provided; you gave a good example with the volcano paper but I provided good counter eveidence about the CO2 increase being due to ACO2 issue and then you’ve gone to water straight away.
Info just posted shows rainfall for MDB 2011 was 596mm. The average for 2010 and 2011 is 702mm, but 1955 and 1956 average is still the highest at 707mm.
But 2010 is still the highest single year rainfall at 809mm compared to 1956 at 787mm.
http://www.bom.gov.au/web01/ncc/www/cli_chg/timeseries/rain/0112/mdb/latest.txt
Also Australia average rainfall for 2010 and 2011 was 702.5mm just lower than 1973 and 1974 at 704mm.
http://www.bom.gov.au/web01/ncc/www/cli_chg/timeseries/rain/0112/aus/latest.txt
Rainfall averages across the MDB and even moreso for the whole of Australia have no practical use other than to engage bureaucrats in meaningless time wasting.
There are so many variables built into such statistics, that they are good for headlines only.
This is born out by the claim that rainfall in the MDB was higher in 2010 than 1956.
A comparison of run-off shows this could not have been the case.
But I guess it is all fodder for those who wish to argue for arguments sake.
Pikey.
None provided – except warming from multiple lines of evidence (including biosphere and species response) that is explained by well known greenhouse physics and no solar driver.
As I said deniers will come up with vast number of internally inconsistent rebuttals to prove black is white. Ho hum.
Whole of MDB analyses are WORTHLESS for rainfall/climate change analysis. The current science (SEACI) analyses reveal a potential longer term drying trend (that’s longer term!) in a strip across southern Australia related to complex circulation changes – a physical mechanism exists. Southern Australia is NOT the whole MDB.
Well Luke here is the BOM’S Southern Australian record showing an increase over the last 112 years of 3.95mm per decade.
Just look at that shocker period 1922 to 1942, a terrible drought and ENTIRELY natural as well.
SE Ausralia shows a slight increase in rainfall and Victoria has a very slight reduction of around 0.02mm decade. SW Australia is well down but the state of WA is well up over the entire record.
http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/change/timeseries.cgi?graph=rranom&area=saus&season=0112&ave_yr=15
“multiple lines of evidence (including biosphere and species response)”
That would be the northern black tipped sharks mating with the southern sharks because of climate change? Yeah sure.
This would have to be the worst warmist post on the drum ever!!
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3758630.html
Just thought we should get a few more facts on the table before we start to believe in some more silly myths about MDB and rainfall.
This is all of the storages in the MDB and at present total storage level is at 88%, probably close to an historical record.
http://www.mdba.gov.au/water/waterinstorage
The Upper Murray storages of Hume and Dartmouth are now at very high levels of 81%.
Don’t forget just a very short time ago these levels were very low and yet have filled to near record levels.
I’m not saying we couldn’t improve strategic parts of the catchment to improve runoff and storage levels over time, but we’ve seen incredible rainfall and runnoff over the last eighteen months.
We most definitely need to improve strategic parts of the catchment.
Thankfully the drought has broken but we will have another one.
The most important lesson the drought has taught us is we have completely outstripped our back up water storage and conservation infrastructure….we’re no longer capable of adequately coping with prolonged periods of low inflows.
Despite the fact that everyone seems to want to make this so complicated it really isn’t.
Think about it….when the Snowy Hydro scheme was built Australia’s total population was under 10 Million.
The population has since doubled and inland Australia has been developed with the full support of Govt decentralisation programs…that also includes the ACT, Queanbeyan and SA.
And yes Luke…we know….some of it was not done well.
We have somehow allowed our storage and management systems to be redefined as ‘environmental resources’….that’s rubbish….they were always ‘community resources’.
We actually need to do more of what we know works and stop pretending the problem is an environmental catastrophe.
In fact we have learned much about environmental responsibility in the last 100 years and we have continually improved in this area.
Our native ephemeral Australian Environment and our ephemeral wetlands have bounced back in an absolutely spectacular manner…including the ‘brown bitterns’ (I finally found the name again SD) and the southern bell frog (extremely noisy individuals).
IT IS THE HUMAN ENVIRONMENTAL ASSETS THAT ARE IN TROUBLE AND NEED ATTENTION!!!!
And also….here is an EPA statement for free.
If we build more water storage and conservation systems they WILL (repeat WILL) impact the surrounding environment.
However… if we keep pretending this is some sort of stand off between irrigated agriculture and the environment we won’t do anything….and if the warmists are even remotely correct…it could be way worse next time.
Humans are actually part of the environment….and irrigated agriculture and the environment are not mortal enemies and they never have been.
Irrigators need a healthy environment and in general the opening of inland Australia has expanded and enhanced wetland environments….despite the fact that it has not been perfect.
Because we have stored and managed water in inland Australia….there are now MORE opportunities for native species to thrive, both plant and animal.
“I’m not saying we couldn’t improve strategic parts of the catchment to improve runoff…”
What are you saying Nev? And how?
Deb; with storages at %88,
http://www.mdba.gov.au/water/waterinstorage
would you deny the MDB authority the right to pulse smaller rivers as required to improve their water quality? “their” = strictly environmental of course
Gavin,
With all due respect….
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
If you believe a centralised bureaucracy can either:
a) help the environment with ‘pulses’ or
b) can take over the management of the MDB without conferring with experienced water managers….
You need to get out more.
Which part of ‘the environment needs their help this season Gavin????
It is just a stupid waste of tax payers money and productive resources!
The birds and the frogs and the trees and the fish and everything else out in this ephemeral boom and bust environment do NOT need their help!!!! ESPECIALLY THIS SEASON!!!
What’s the point?????
For one, I don’t think Deb Central can do a better job.
Two, there has been a lot of conferring both in the past and recently.
Three, I was on the blower when JH Mal n co first took over.
Four, thats after I lobbed a lot round ACT needs & resources
And five,
You still don’t know what you’re talking about and
six you seem to think its perfectly OK for bureaucracies to interfere and waste resources for no discernable result and
seven, you think this is about Labor, Green vs Coalition politics and
eight, unless you see it in a bureaucratic type report, in your world it isn’t worth anyone’s attention.
In case you haven’t noticed Gavin, we’re not interfering in your life and your livelihood but the people you worship are most definitely interfering in ours. They have already spent over $1 Billion and achieved what exactly?
And just so you understand, that applies to both sides of politics.
You just have to love clowns like Neville reduced to trawling through BoM’s climate data for something to suit his argument – I think southern Australia still might a tad large dough boy being half the continent – NOT what the science is saying numb nuts. Try reading some science and stop slumming it with the data povs and denier dweebs.
http://www.seaci.org/publications/documents/SEACI-2Reports/Program_Annual_Report_2010_11.pdf
Research in Theme 1 is contributing to a better understanding of the factors that influence climate and
streamflow within south-eastern Australia (SEA). Having previously established the relationship between southeastern
Australian rainfall and the Sub-Tropical Ridge (STR) intensity and position, the focus this year has been to
investigate the relationship between this key controller of SEA rainfall and large-scale indices of the Mean
Meridional Circulation such the Australian Monsoon Index and the intensity and latitudinal extent of the Hadley
circulation.. The overall picture emerging is that the changes seen across SEA are part of changes in large-scale
atmospheric circulation patterns and, in turn, in climate affecting the entire southern hemisphere. For example,
a range of datasets and methods indicate that the tropics are expanding, pushing the downward descending
arm of the Hadley circulation further south. Although not very large (of the order of 0.5° per decade), evidence
for this expansion appears very robust. One important finding was that changes in both the Sub Tropical Ridge
intensity (STR-I) and Sub Tropical Ridge position (STR-P) are related to the expansion of the Hadley circulation.
While this was anticipated for the STR-P, this is a surprise for the STR-I, which was expected to relate more to the
intensity of the Hadley cell. These observed changes are changing the nature of the rainfall across SEA: rain
bearing systems affecting SEA are less often due to mid latitude cyclones and increasingly due to larger systems
centred further north. This signal is seasonally dependent and peaks during summer and autumn, providing
insight into the observed autumn rainfall deficit. Finally, a climate model reproduced the expansion of the
Hadley circulation only if anthropogenic influences on atmospheric greenhouse gas and particle concentrations
were included in the model. Furthermore, the model also related the strengthening of the STR to the expansion
and not the intensity of the Hadley circulation.
“we’re not interfering in your life and your livelihood but the people you worship are most definitely interfering in ours.”
except for the billions siphoned off in drought aid from supposed know it-all climate masters – yea sure Debs !
The great protected molly coddled subsidised agrarian socialist agriculture = tax drain.
Luke?
Do you really want to go there?
How about we do a comparison of tax payer spending urban vs rural as well as a comparison of productive GDP returns per capita urban vs rural?
After that we could also factor in mining income which is also situated almost exclusively in rural areas and have a little sqiz at where that tax income is spent.
And don’t forget we need to factor in the wages of all the new PS jobs that have been created because they’re paid with tax dollars too 🙂
A little bit of perspective would be much appreciated.
BTW those of us who received the much appreciated assistance during the drought are right now in the process of proving it was a good investment.
Also, the interference I alluded to was not just about money.
You and Gavin along with the people you appear to unconditionally worship have continually refered to rural and agricultural communities as some type of inferior, second class citizens who have catastrophically destroyed the pristine Australian environment.
You have inferred that we need ‘transitioning’ because we are the great uneducated hokey unwashed who could not possibly understand the ‘high level principles’ that you almost religiously stick to 🙂
The truth is you are just ordinary people like us and you are just as likely to make mistakes as we are.
And we’re just as likely to often bail you out.
I will admit I find Goddard’s law hard to resist!
Well done that man!
Deb; rhetoric like your last post keeps me worried that you may actually be trying to represent your community.
Recall; I’m a country boy at heart and don’t hold a grudge re other folk from a similar background. I also worked with water in many industries including some that do destroy an environment such as mining.
What is clear though it’s you who is stuck in a rut over water management and the people tasked with moving us on in a new era of control. Nobody is out to get you and least of all me. What you should see is a little light from the other side of the PS divide.
Today I lobbied our pollies on a quite different rural hazard. We can expect that they will come back to the community soon with another piece of leglislation and that’s as it should be regardless of who is restrained by the act.
Debs – Agricultural GNP is bugger all we import more food than ever. Anyway I reckon can the funding to the rust bucket too hard to fix southern ecosystems and invest in northern Australia.
But Debs – don’t worry I’m looking after your interests every day nevertheless.
Luke,
That was a great example of missing the point.
The southern ecosystems aren’t broken Luke, they just need some attention.
The stuff that everyone was making a fuss about is already fixed anyway.
Agricultural GDP is in positive and it also has a knock on effect re employment and value adding.
I’m sure there would be many bureaucrats whose wages depend on Agriculture who would be horrified that you’re writing it off as ‘bugger all’.
Even if it’s a mere single digit positive it is still a positive and not a ‘drain’ as you implied earlier.
Gavin…of course it’s about a new sort of control….the feds want control of water in the MDB.
They are merely using environmental international treaties as their excuse to do it.
Unfortunately, in the process, they have used the MDB irrigators and supporting communities as ‘cannon fodder’ in a contrived environmental based war.
I’m not a fan of that type of behaviour….I would much prefer them to be honest.
Here you go Luke and Gav,
Latest reported figs.
I’m not sure where in anyone’s language, $405 BILLION is ‘bugger all’?
I might also just add Luke….the bailout that occured in the depth of the drought and for which we were extremely grateful, did not get anywhere close to these figures.
And excuse my blatant use of rhetoric but:
When looking at these published….bureaucratically produced figures….how is it possible for you to claim that agriculture is a tax drain???????
I don’t know about you two, but I suspect that a lot of your PS peers whose income relies on this happening would be absolutely horrified at your dismissive attitude.
http://www.maff.gov.au/media_office/media_releases/media_releases/2012/january/celebrating-australian-farmers-in-2012
http://www.nswic.org.au/pdf/commodity/111230%20-%20Australian%20Commodities%20Dec.pdf
As I said before….and you completely totally ignored…..a litle bit of perspective would be very much appreciated.
And Gavin????
Why would you find it worrying that I might be representing my community?
Is that some sort of intellectual problem for you? Is that a politically incorrect behaviour in your estimation of the world?
Don’t you represent yours?
Maybe you don’t have a community?