THE Rudd Government’s planned carbon trading system will cost business between $14billion and $22billion a year and will have to be considered in a review of the taxation system.
Taxation Institute director Michael Dirkis yesterday said that the money generated by the emissions trading system would be equivalent to more than 40 per cent of company tax revenue.
“You cannot design a system that impacts on business and brings in that level of government revenue without dealing with tax,” he said.
The Australian: Carbon plan ‘to cost business $22bn’
Of course, the effect on climate will be a big fat zero.
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
I’m amused by the “to cost business” part of the headline.
Of course business will pass this cost on to the punters immediately — to the tune of $1,000 per person per year.
Can all the strident supporters of this global warming hysteria please register their details online so that I will know who to send my bill to once the Rudd government enacts their “Carbon Choices” legislation?
Ivan – “Can all the strident supporters of this global warming hysteria please register their details online so that I will know who to send my bill to once the Rudd government enacts their “Carbon Choices” legislation?”
Sure as long as all the strident supporters of inaction on climate change register their details online so I can send my bill for climate change related damages. They might even cancel out.
And of course that they completely fail to mention that the increased revenue from carbon taxes can be given back in subsidies for household PV electricity, insulating houses properly, installing low or zero cost solar hot water heaters, buying LED or CFL lights, replacing inefficient air conditioners with 10 star ones, replacing low efficiency fridges with 6 star ones.
All of which can cut your electricity use sufficiently to offset any rises in price. You might even work out paying less.
We have to ensure that the revenues are returned in this way.
OK .. keep going.
You’ve now solved around 1-2% of “the problem”.
What next ?
Ender, what you’re really saying is that it’s going to cost us at least $10,000 a year?
And end up doing even greater damage to the environment.
Ender – I think you confuse technology and efficiency with taxation.
Then you try to link technology, efficiency and taxation with climate change, when there is no significant link.
Send the bill to the sun, the universe, and the earth’s internal climate system.
More like $20,000 — a 1kW PV grid-connected system is around $15K (before rebates) – and that might run your fridge and PC (during the day). A ‘cheap’ solar water heater is $2K – new fridge + aircon + insulation (and don’t forget the mercury-laden CFL lights) – let’s say another $5K. Minimum $22K.
Now multiply that by 8 million households in Australia — gives you a lazy $175 Billion!
Not to mention the energy demands to manufacture all this stuff. And all to solve 1-2% of the problem.
That’s the great thing about being part of an Environmental Jihad — nothing has to make sense. The mantra just has to sound simple.
Enders economics never add up. My total power bill is only $800 a year for a family of five and Ender seriously believes that we will get $5000 a year ($1000 x 5 people) worth of ‘savings’ with all his toys.
It is Al Gore’s “Manbearpig” again, half man, half bear, half pig, that just does not add up. But don’t worry, Ender has the kind of brain that can cruise over these kind of inconvenient facts all the way to ideological la la land.
I guess that’s what happens when you’re not constrained by knowledge…
Ivan – “More like $20,000 — a 1kW PV grid-connected system is around $15K (before rebates) – and that might run your fridge and PC (during the day). A ‘cheap’ solar water heater is $2K – new fridge + aircon + insulation (and don’t forget the mercury-laden CFL lights) – let’s say another $5K. Minimum $22K.”
Fairly typical of a misinformed luddite like yourself.
1KW PV – $3500 installed – runs your house when power is needed the most – during the day.
Add on solar tube hot water $3000 before rebates which can be up to $1000 – replaces the most intensive power application.
And so on ….
Subsidies not buying them. The point is why you are screaming “we’ll all be runed” other people see it as a chance to reduce our energy use.
Ivan – “I guess that’s what happens when you’re not constrained by knowledge…”
and straitjacketing conservative idealogies that were outdated in the 1890s ….
The costs for alternate solar power are illusionary because a lot of CO2 and other pollution is created when the cells are manufactured. This makes the cells artificially cheap because they are manufactured in countries with no plans to limit CO2. But a price on carbon and the cost of those cells will go through the roof.
Just to show how outdated your ideas are here is a quote from a visionary:
“Some day some fellow will invent a way of concentrating and storing up sunshine to use instead of this old, absurd Prometheus scheme of fire. I’ll do the trick myself if some one else doesn’t get at it. Why, that is all there is about my work in electricity–you know, I never claimed to have invented electricity–that is a campaign lie–nail it!
Sunshine is spread out thin and so is electricity. Perhaps they are the same, but we will take that up later. Now the trick was, you see, to concentrate the juice and liberate it as you needed it. The old-fashioned way inaugurated by Jove, of letting it off in a clap of thunder, is dangerous, disconcerting and wasteful. It doesn’t fetch up anywhere. My task was to subdivide the current and use it in a great number of little lights, and to do this I had to store it. And we haven’t really found out how to store it yet and let it off real easy-like and cheap. Why, we have just begun to commence to get ready to find out about electricity. This scheme of combustion to get power makes me sick to think of–it is so wasteful. It is just the old, foolish Prometheus idea, and the father of Prometheus was a baboon.”
When we learn how to store electricity, we will cease being apes ourselves; until then we are tailless orangutans. You see, we should utilize natural forces and thus get all of our power. Sunshine is a form of energy, and the winds and the tides are manifestations of energy. Do we use them? Oh, no! We burn up wood and coal, as renters burn up the front fence for fuel. We live like squatters, not as if we owned the property.
There must surely come a time when heat and power will be stored in unlimited quantities in every community, all gathered by natural forces. Electricity ought to be as cheap as oxygen, for it can not be destroyed. Now, I am not sure but that my new storage-battery is the thing. I’d tell you about that, but I don’t want to bore you…”
(Source: Interview in Elbert Hubbard’s Little Journeys to the Homes of the Great) 1910
See if you can guess who the visionary was.
Ender,
“Now, I am not sure but that my new storage-battery is the thing.” And electrical storage is still not much closer than it was in 1910.
I don’t know where you get your figures on PV systems from but you might want to check them. Ivan is quite right – current quotes (in Canberra) I have for 1KW installed are around $7000 after rebates. Also, my household, at least, uses most of its electricity at night and I think that is fairly typical. I use 6kWh per day and about 1.5kWh of that during actual daylight.
It’s ok reading ‘visionaries’ but eventually reality kicks you in the bum.
My old man always used to say: “Never argue with a moron – they wear you down and then beat you with experience.”
‘1KW PV – $3500 installed – runs your house when power is needed the most – during the day.’
What I actually wrote was: “a 1kW PV grid-connected system is around $15K (before rebates)”.
I think this highlights who are the luddites in this debate. In the real world, most people’s houses use little to no energy during the day and a lot at night. This is because most people in the real world are doing something called ‘work’ during the day.
Of course, your Eco-Nazis would close down power stations, industry, most private transport, etc — so there would be no work for people to go to. Then your la-la land would come to fruition — unemployed people sitting around all day wishing they had solar electricity that they can’t afford.
As I’ve mentioned on other threads on this blog, we’re just about to get a very generous feed-in tariff for PV in Canberra. The people who will benefit from this, apart from the installers, are the householders who install PV. They will receive community-funded insulation (insolation?) from future electricity price rises.
The community itself will receive little as it will require 20% of households to have 2kW installations to offset just one year’s estimated increase in ACT electricity use.
bikerider – “I don’t know where you get your figures on PV systems from but you might want to check them”
Sure:
http://www.solarunlimited.com.au/solarunlimited/Cost.cms?ident=4K7XW2RI8LTWSISVPS4WVZZRGX6KWP
“It won’t cost the earth!
Based on a SINGLE storey dwelling with a TIN roof in the Perth metro area, your system will be fully installed and exporting power to Synergy
FROM ONLY :
$3 500*
What is included?
*
25 years capacity guarantee**
*
U.S. designed Solar Panels
*
1.05kW of Solar Panels
*
A 2.2kW inverter with a 5 year warranty (YES 2.2kW, not a 1kW)
*
The assessment/administration fee of $107 charged by Synergy
*
Installation and supervision by BSCE qualified installers and electrician
*
Full 12 x months warranty on workmanship”
For another one only a little more expensive:
http://www.energymatters.com.au/climate-data/grid-calculate-solar.php#1
$5000 for a 1KW installation is not bad. Perhaps you should check your figures.
Ivan – “In the real world, most people’s houses use little to no energy during the day and a lot at night. This is because most people in the real world are doing something called ‘work’ during the day.”
Really Ivan so it is completely impossible in your neo conservative world to imagine that workplaces can mount solar panels? What about weekends? What about single income families like ours that have someone home all day or do you imagine that every couple in Australia has 2 people working? What about people that work from home? Have you actually looked at the demand curves from NEMMCO? Off peak power (at night), when you think most people use power, is often 40% of peak demand in the daytime.
Do you ever read any of the nonsense you write?
FROM ONLY :
$3 500* — note the *
Keep reading down their page:
*After the government grant and Renewable Energy Certificates. (i.e. add in + $8000)
* You may need a Smart Meter from Synergy (i.e. add in +$3000)
And what does that all come to ?? Around $15K (before rebates)!
Yeah, very good ender, how much do you think they’d charge to come and set one up for me in the ACT?
Yes, I’ve checked my figures thanks – all suppliers in the Canberra region (and those I’ve looked at in Sydney and Melbourne) have similar pricing. In our case it may be a side-effect of the upcoming feed-in tariff.
Who are Synergy? Sure they’re not an energy provider that’s just renting your roof-space? The inclusions are typical of most offers but the price is very low – I’d take them up if I were you.
I’m interested in your comments back to Ivan. Even at weekends our electricity usage is the same pattern. We boil a few kettles, the fridge runs etc. We don’t need light, seldom cook during the day. You don’t use a *gulp* airconditioner do you?
Daylight hours in the ACT run from 7.4 in summer to 3.7 in winter – not a lot of scope for utilising the power from a PV.
I agree with your comment that businesses should have PV – I just don’t think we should waste time and money putting them on houses.
Ivan – “You may need a Smart Meter from Synergy (i.e. add in +$3000)”
A smart meter, which I already have, does not cost $3000 – where did you get this figure from? As far as I know the changeover is about $500.00. You would not be making up figures now would you?
BikeRider – “Yes, I’ve checked my figures thanks – all suppliers in the Canberra region (and those I’ve looked at in Sydney and Melbourne) have similar pricing. In our case it may be a side-effect of the upcoming feed-in tariff.”
Energy Matters is in Melbourne and they install Australia wide.
“Who are Synergy?”
They are the new electricity suppliers in WA after the break up of Western Power.
“Even at weekends our electricity usage is the same pattern. We boil a few kettles, the fridge runs etc. We don’t need light, seldom cook during the day. You don’t use a *gulp* airconditioner do you?”
You maybe however my wife is at home all day. The fridge runs however when it is hottest ie: in summer and sunny the fridge is working the hardest so is demanding more energy. We have an evaporative air conditioner that we use mostly as a fan. It takes one tenth of the power of a refrigerative system. As I lived in Higgins and McGregor for 4 years I know how Canberra is. Solar Tube hot water will work really well there and save on all the electrity use. There are also thousands of ex-govies that can be better insulated. With mine in Higgins I spent $1000 on insulation in the extension that was put on by the previous owner with no insulation at all. BTW are they still clearing houses insulated by Mr Fluffy? There was on across the street from us that they encased in plastic and the cleaners put on space suits to clean out. (Mr Fluffy insulated houses with blue fluffy asbestos for a while in Canberra)
BikeRider – “You don’t use a *gulp* airconditioner do you?”
Well a lot of people do and leave them on all day so that their house is cool when they come home. These are the same people that will build a charcoal black house with a charcoal black roof and panoramic windows facing due west in Perth. (I can send you the photo of my favourite)
For these people the solar panels would almost completely offset the airconditioner use as the time when aircon is most needed it is sunny.
I am considering installing a small aircon as a heater. A 6 star 500W reverse cycle aircon (Fujutsu split system) will give me 2400W of heating. For my house flued gas in no good and with the allegies that my family members have I cannot have an unflued gas heater. The small aircon is the best heating for the least energy use I can find. Mind you we do not need much heating.
Ender
Hmm, I thought Synergy had the feel of an energy supplier about them. They would have a vested interest in promoting PV as an aim to meeting renewable energy targtes.
I’d have no problem if that happened in the ACT – in fact if we had ESCOs as are proposed in the UK where an energy supplier negotiated costs with a household and applied offsets if they can install, own and maintain PV on that house roof that would be better again. But, as I said above, the impact would be negligible in terms of energy and emissions reductions.
We’re still building the type of dark houses you mention and they still receive 5 star ratings – it beggars belief.
The Mr Fluffy debacle was cleaned up by the ACT Government years ago but he also did his installations in surrounding areas such as Queanbeyan and the NSW Government will do nothing about it – check carefully if you’re buying and older Queanbeyan house.
bikerider – “We’re still building the type of dark houses you mention and they still receive 5 star ratings – it beggars belief.”
However in Canberra with bitterly cold winters this is a reasonable strategy. I know it gets stinking hot in summer however maximising solar gain in winter could make sense. Here in Perth it is the height of folly as we have vastly more hot weather than cool.
Ivan – Just to show how much you are making up figures, here are the rates for smartmeter installation:
http://www.synergy.net.au/Residential_Segment/SmartPower/SmartPower_Savings.html
I was wrong. A smart meter for an existing house is $165.00. For a new house it it $66.00. However I guess making up figures to ‘prove’ your argument is par for the course.
It doesn’t make any more sense here than anywhere else. We get plenty of hot weather too. If you’re implying this is an energy-efficiency strategy I would point out that it’s a poor one as the thermal mass would be on the outside of any insulating layer.
I’m critical of the star rating (and not just in Canberra) because it still allows the building of houses that fail to be energy efficient. Black roofs are just part of it, suitable orientation and window shading are ignored, space heating and hot water systems are not included.
I’d also add that IMHO Canberra is not ‘bitterly cold’. My house (built in 1968) has a northern orientation (unusual even in modern building) and requires no daytime heating on most winter days. I cycle to work throughout the year and am quite comfortable doing so even in the morning.
bikerider – “I’d also add that IMHO Canberra is not ‘bitterly cold'”
It was for me moving from Brisbane (-: I did get used to it however the mists that lasted until 1:00pm in the afternoon finally got to me and I jumped at a chance to move to Perth. You must be made of sterner stuff than me. Riding a motorbike in the middle of winter from McGregor to Fairbairn used to freeze me solid.
Your house color can make a difference as the energy absorbed can make its way in slowly. However as you correctly point out it is unlikely that a black house and roof will help much. It beggers belief that someone could be so out of tune with current events to build one in Canberra let alone Perth. BTW I did get a bit of a shock here when we built our house that 99% of houses in Perth are double brick – that is the standard of all off the shelf project homes. I thought at the time this would be better in Canberra a brick veneer homes were in the past very unlikely to include wall insulation.
However the house color
If you look at the numbers in that article, instead of just accepting them on face value and hyperventilating about it:
The economist says that using a European price equivalent of $37.70 per tonne, emissions trading would cost the Australian electricity industry $11.5 billion.
Dividing one by the other, and you get 305 million tonnes.
That is about what the Australian electricity industry emits all together.
In other words, the bright spark quoted in that Australian article has costed reducing Australia’s emissions to ZERO.
In reality, maybe the emissions trading structure will be set up to require, say, a 1% drop in emissions per year.
Australia’s annual emissions are about 560 million tonnes in total, so to get a 1% drop in total emissions per year, and using $37.70 per tonne, the cost will be more like an additional $200 million per year.
If you divvy that up amongst just households, that’s $9.50 increase per year per household.
These numbers are obviously rough simplifications, but far more sensible than the rubbish in that Australian article.
Thanks for reminding me about Mr Fluffy – it was timely as we’re about to buy a property in either Goulbourn or Bega – both places he distributed his noxious material.
Also, the early morning winter fogs don’t happen very often now – it must be global warming 🙂
“In other words, the bright spark quoted in that Australian article has costed reducing Australia’s emissions to ZERO.”
That’s the game plan! Do you seriously think that all the hysteria is about “say, a 1% drop in emissions per year”?
What planet does this idea come from?
The aspirational targets (of which there are several suggestions that have gained some traction) are anywhere from 50-90% reduction by 2050 or 2060. Not a 100% reduction in the 1st year of the emissions trading scheme.
So saying $22 billion for emissions trading is nonsense – perhaps it would be that in 50-100 years, all other things being equal, but the world, our energy sources and our economy will be a lot different in 100 years, rendering the $22 billion number to be quite meaningless.
This isn’t hard to understand is it Ivan?
So you think it will be that simple do you?
Choose any from the following categories:
1) Nutters (too many in this category)
“Yarra Council says zero net emissions do not go far enough.” – 22 June 2007
http://www.yarracity.vic.gov.au/publications/media%20releases/Zero%20emissions.asp
“Only zero emissions can prevent a warmer planet” – New Scientist 29 Feb 2008
http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn13395-only-zero-emissions-can-prevent-a-warmer-planet.html
2) Certifiable nutters:
“Dr James Hansen, wrote an open letter to Kevin Rudd on March 27, 2008 urging him to halt the
construction of new coal-fired power stations.”
3) Frothing-at-the-mouth nutters:
“An 87% Cut by 2030” – Monbiot, 21 Sep 2006
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/09/21/an-87-cut-by-2030/
“A 90% Cut by 2030” – Monbiot, 31 Oct 2007
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/oct/31/economy.politics
4) Raving dangerous nutters (Green Left)
“It is clear that action to reduce emissions beyond anything recommended by Stern is needed and that it is needed now. Social energy use needs to be seriously reduced and fossil fuel energy needs to be replaced with environmentally sustainable alternatives.”
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/706/36689
“This sort of societal change requires ordinary working people to get involved in forcing the necessary changes.”
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/747/38650
So — you think all this lot is going to simply fold their tent and go home and say “well done” if the “aspirational” 60% reduction by 2050 gets up?
Any part of this you don’t understand? Or haven’t you been paying attention?
Interesting, bikerider reckons “the early morning winter fogs don’t happen very often now – it must be global warming”
If ACT fogs are vanishing then we should prove it from records. Anyone watching the early morning gatherings on TV this week should know about our cloudless autumn skies.
Here in Ontario, solar stupidity knows no bounds when it comes to our provincial government:
http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteShared/demand_price.asp?sid=ic#price
At 42 cents/kwh, the subsidized rate is over 7 times the typical market rate! What’s that roaring flushing sound! At least they won’t have to pay subsidies for 4 months of the year when the arrays would be buried in snow! If solar can’t make a go of it without subsidies in sunnier climes such as Australia and California, what the hell are they trying to prove?
If solar can’t make a go of it there on its own accord then it should be a non-starter. This includes the cost of storage to meet the actual usage profile of power consumption:
http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/siteShared/demand_price.asp?sid=ic#price
Doing some rough math for a 1 kw system:
8 kwh per day (estimated power produced)
9 cents per kwh (includes tranmission charges)
= 72 cents per day saved
x 365 days/year
= ~ 260/yr. in power cost savings
Assuming a 10% potential return on capital, such a rig with power storage should cost no more than $2,600.
Fat chance!
Sure the ecofreaks will buy ’em but the vast majority of people will not unless they are subsidized which does not make economic sense!
Mark – economic sense is irrelevant when you’re saving the world and re-educating the population!
Mark, I agree with your sentiments but your estimated energy produced is a bit high. Australia is touted as being an ideal place for solar power because of our high sunlight levels (they neglect the deleterious effect of our high heat levels). Even so, the Australian Business Council for Sustainable Energy (BCSE) indicates that Tennant Creek would produce one of the highest average daily outputs in the country from 1kW installed – just 4.5kWh.
My own calculations show that a 2kWh install on a Canberra roof would produce about 3MWh per year – about 1 millionth of the ACT annual usage (2.9TWh).
Our energy supplier (ActewAGL) also estimates an annual increase in demand of 2.5% which means 25,000 (20% of the city’s housing stock) 2kW installations are required just to keep up with 1 year’s increase. The cost will be $625,000 (assuming we can’t get Ender’s very generous WA offer and $300,000 if we can). We could spend this money much more effectively on by replacing every electric water heater in the ACT with high-efficiency gas (much more effective than electric-boosted solar in a cool climate).
As I’ve said, our proposed feed-in tariff is intended to repay the installation costs out of community money.
I’d be delighted if someone could show me where my figures are wrong or why this is a Really Good Idea as I’m all for taking advantage of middle class welfare.
bikerider,
Thanks for the specifics. Like I said mine was an estimate and erred on the side of being generous to the ecofreaks. Don’t ask me why!
bikerider – “My own calculations show that a 2kWh install on a Canberra roof would produce about 3MWh per year – about 1 millionth of the ACT annual usage (2.9TWh).”
You are spot on and this would supply 45% of your electricity over the year. Comparing your output with the ACTs demand is a bit misleading however.
“We could spend this money much more effectively on by replacing every electric water heater in the ACT with high-efficiency gas (much more effective than electric-boosted solar in a cool climate).”
First up the cheapest and easiest energy saving method is conservation. House insulation and energy efficient appliances are far better than rooftop PVs. Second you are correct that hot water heating is more cost effective. However gas boosted solar is the best of all. In Canberra you can use evacuated tube solar panels that are far better than flat plates in colder climates. The evacuated tubes are heat diodes. They capture energy even on overcast days and this cannot get out again due to the vacuum in the tubes.
http://www.hillssolar.com.au/arbitrage/pages/94
Finally rooftop solar PV avoids transmission losses and provides power for people that use airconditioners when they are used the most. Also why not use these rooftops?
No-one has ever said that rooftop solar is the be all and end all of renewable power. It is not even the best however as part of the mix it will play a large part especially for peak power when it is needed.
Large scale reductions in CO2 emissions will come from a combination of wind/batteries, solar thermal/heat storage, geothermal and gasified coal/natural gas/gasified biomass. Only a very small percentage needs to be inflexible base load (<20%). Gasified coal/natural gas is vastly more flexible and can interact with renewables automatically. Gas turbines can also be small community devices close to demand avoiding transmission losses. Rooftop PV will only be a small part of this however it will still be important in reducing peak demand from the grid with low emissions.
Right now however its main function is education. Most of us can benefit from realising how much energy we actually use and solar PV can include devices to raise awareness of energy flows.
Ender, Congratulations – you have just perfected “Climate Maths”, the companion to “Climate Science”.
Given that:
– electricity accounts for 52% of GHG emission,
– and that residential use is ~28% of electricty production
– and that this “initiative” may save 45% of residential use over the year (providing you don’t mind huddling together to eat cold food in the dark), then by conventional maths you have (at best) solved 52% x 28% x 45% (or 6.5%) of “the problem” — not allowing for growth!
Remind me – how many $$Billions would this “initiative” divert away from real energy solutions?
Ender,
“Comparing your output with the ACTs demand is a bit misleading however.”
No, it is not. The feed-it tariff is designed as a community GHG mitigation strategy and will be paid for by federal tax payers and imposts on ACT electricity consumers. These poor bunnies deserve to have their money spent in a much more effective way.
“would supply 45% of your electricity over the year”. Actually, a 2kW install would make me a net exporter as I only use 2.2 MWh per year. And this is my point. Why should I get my system paid for by the community when there will be next to no effect on that community’s emissions?
I have no problem with individuals installing PV if it makes them feel good. It will offset their electricity bills to a certain extent once the infrastrucure is paid for. I will even do it myself if I ever get round to building my ideal house.
Agree with you about conservation. My electricty, gas and water usage are all about a third of the national average so I’m making progress. And, I would point out, that has not reduced my lifestyle one little bit.
Yes, gas-boosted solar is the best emissions-wise, but the estimate I got for the system you describe was well in excess of $6,000, with high-efficiency gas costing around $2,500. My point here is, bang for buck, high-efficiency gas is better. May be a different story if you’re living in a warmer area than Canberra or Melbourne.
“No-one has ever said that rooftop solar is the be all and end all of renewable power”. Actually, some appear to say just that. The spin surrounding PV is incredible. One of the very few critisims I have read on microgeneration and PV came from a source I didn’t expect and hesitate to mention on this blog – George Monbiot. It concerns me that ACT residents are being led to believe that installing 1kW PV is actually going to help.
I’ve heard the claim about transmission loss used at one of the feed-in tariff forums in town. It was used to fob off a person who asked why we don’t build a solar farm in the ACT that could be properly managed. They quickly moved on before they could be asked difficult questions about losses incurred by the 2 methane plants at the tips, or any future ACT plants (a recent example would be the proposed gas turbine at Hume). Transmission loss is directly proportional to distance so energy from Yallourn will be diminished. But so will any energy generated and used elsewhere, to a greater or lesser extent. If I generate PV energy most of it will not be used by me and who knows where it will end up – maybe the other side of town? You say it will be avoided – no, it will be reduced.
I read recently that a group of NSW South Coast residents have installed PV to ease their consciences when they use their airconditioners. Beats me why they need ’em in places like that. We have a retired architech in Canberra who is excellent on building energy efficiency. His belief is that there is no reason to use them in the ACT, proper building design is all that’s required.
“and solar PV can include devices to raise awareness of energy flows”. Yes, but you don’t need PV to get them. They’re $200 and easily fitted. But why be an eco-consumer – just learn to read your meter.
Ivan,
“Remind me – how many $$Billions would this “initiative” divert away from real energy solutions?” Exactly!
bikerider – “The feed-it tariff is designed as a community GHG mitigation strategy”
And a stimulus to to the renewable industry that has to compete with artificially cheap coal. Germany attained its massive position in renewables partly from starting with feed in tariffs.
“Yes, gas-boosted solar is the best emissions-wise, but the estimate I got for the system you describe was well in excess of $6,000, with high-efficiency gas costing around $2,500.”
Again you have to shop around. It is possibly to retro fit solar to existing hot water systems.
“Transmission loss is directly proportional to distance so energy from Yallourn will be diminished.”
Yes that is why using electricity at its point of generation is so important. Combined heat and power systems are growing in popularity. These microturbines can still be controlled centrally and interact with a smart grid assuming we ever advance to this. Also we will need more HVDC power transmission lines so wind assets can be dispersed.
“Ivan and bikerider
“Remind me – how many $$Billions would this “initiative” divert away from real energy solutions?” Exactly!”
What real solutions? Please no more baseload from the 19th century.
“assuming we can’t get Ender’s very generous WA offer”
I wonder just how generous this offer is?
If you actually read the Solar Unlimited website that Ender quotes, it doesn’t make any reference to grid connection. Even in the technical specs section (which, incidentally does mention that they use the useless 150W panels).
However, when you go to their “Connecting to the Grid” section — what does it say there, under the heading “Cost of Grid Connected Renewable Energy Systems”?
Let me quote:
“For example, a 1kW solar photovoltaic system will cost around $15,000”
Well…well…well.
Ivan – “It won’t cost the earth!
Based on a SINGLE storey dwelling with a TIN roof in the Perth metro area, your system will be fully installed and exporting power to Synergy
FROM ONLY :
$3 500*”
Fully installed and exporting power to Synergy! What section did you read? What is useless about 150W panels? What planet exactly are you on? Please post the exact link and text – I think you are saying the Solar Unlimited and reading from the Energy Matters link.
The planet where people actually read the details.
Ender:
“Rooftop PV will only be a small part of this however it will still be important in reducing peak demand from the grid with low emissions.”
Will it really? You seem to love to bellyache about “the grid” but let’s keep a few things in perspective:
a) Typical overall transmission losses from the grid with the US as an example are just over 7% so they aren’t that BIG a factor.
b) In your la-la land you’re still going to be heavily reliant on “the grid” to:
i) Transmit power and load balalnce from those highly dispersed and intermittent wind farms you advocate
ii) Transmit power during the day from rooftop PVs in residential areas to where the power is needed in business and industry
iii) Transmit power into residential areas in the peak residential usage period from 4 PM to 10 PM when PVs will start to become irrelevant as the sun gets lower on the horizon and then disappears until the next day.
Keep smoking it!
Ivan – “The planet where people actually read the details.”
So that would be different from yours where you make the details up and/or cherry pick them from different sources.
Mark – a) Typical overall transmission losses from the grid with the US as an example are just over 7% so they aren’t that BIG a factor.”
Yes but 7% to 10% over short distances. Longer distances with large distributors need HVDC.
“b) In your la-la land you’re still going to be heavily reliant on “the grid” to:
i) Transmit power and load balalnce from those highly dispersed and intermittent wind farms you advocate”
Yes however HVDC distributers can incorporate storage because the power converters that make DC from the AC that wind turbines etc make are almost identical to the ones that make AC from DC batteries. Also a smart grid can take power first from local sources before relying in distant sources – thats what being smart means.
“ii) Transmit power during the day from rooftop PVs in residential areas to where the power is needed in business and industry”
There is no requirement for rooftop PVs to transmit much power. They are primarily for immediate consumption where they are installed. Business and industry can have their own PVs.
“iii) Transmit power into residential areas in the peak residential usage period from 4 PM to 10 PM when PVs will start to become irrelevant as the sun gets lower on the horizon and then disappears until the next day.”
No really?? I hate to be the first one to tell you this but there is already a distribution system in place to do this. It is called the electricity grid. Really all people that can think beyond 1980 want to do is add smarts to bring it into the 21st century.
When PVs start to decline then wind can take over or solar thermal using storage or your electric car or the tide or the waves or anything else that was not available in Victorian England where the power grid is stuck today.
Ender,
I have to say you have a very negative and judgmental attitude for someone who ranks himself alongside the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela:
http://stevegloor.typepad.com/sgloor/2007/08/my-political-co.html
How do they feel about being included alongside you, I wonder?
Ivan – “I have to say you have a very negative and judgmental attitude for someone who ranks himself alongside the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela:”
I just answered the questions. In fact I did not see how you could answer them any differently. Why not do the test yourself and post the answer. I think that you would get a shock at who you were grouped with.
Solar Unlimited. 1kW INSTALLED FROM ONLY $1,850*
I’m still pretty sure some people won’t like it…