The Japanese Government made the following opening statement on the first day of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) meeting:
“The Government of Japan expresses its appreciation to the Government of St.
Kitts and Nevis for hosting the 58th Annual Meeting of the IWC and for the hospitality we have received. We are pleased to be here on your beautiful island of St. Kitts.This 58th Annual Meeting marks a serious turning point for the IWC. The IWC has been dysfunctional because of fundamental differences in the position of its members. It has become a mere stage for emotional and political conflicts at the sacrifice of the original mission of the organization: conservation and sustainable use of whale resources.
Japan, together with other members supporting the sustainable use of whale resources, has great concerns about this situation and is to express its commitment to normalizing and saving the IWC as a resource management organization. We are convinced that the IWC can only be saved from its current crisis by respecting and interpreting in good faith the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling (ICRW). This means protecting endangered and depleted species while allowing the sustainable utilization of abundant species under a controlled, transparent and science-based management regime.
Since the adoption of the moratorium in 1982, the IWC has failed to meet its main objective as mandated by the ICRW; that is, “to provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the orderly development of the whaling industry”. Now, after 14 years of discussions and negotiations to complete a Revised Management Scheme (RMS), this failure has been confirmed by the decision to postpone further discussions on the completion of RMS. We sincerely regret this decision.
The IWC Scientific Committee’s reports have clearly shown that many species of whales have recovered – others are recovering. It also shows that science allows sustainable harvest of abundant species of whales without depleting their stocks. Modern enforcement and monitoring measures can prevent the repetition of the past over-harvesting.
Use of cetaceans, like other fishery resources, contributes to sustainable coastal communities, sustainable livelihoods, food security and poverty reduction. Whales should be treated as any other marine living resources available for harvesting subject to conservation and science-based management. Scientifically and legally, there is no reason to treat cetaceans differently.
At this IWC meeting in St. Kitts, Japan will initiate a consultation process to bring the IWC back on the right track. We encourage those members that support the ICRW and the principle of sustainable use to join this normalization process. Failure of this initiative would mean that the IWC will lose its raison d’etre as an intergovernmental organization for resource management.”
… And all I heard on radio this morning in Australia, was that Australia “won” and Japan “lost” both votes including on whether or not there should be secret ballots. Australia’s Environment Minister Ian Campbell is telling us that so far it has been a “win for the whales”.
Jennifer Marohasy BSc PhD is a critical thinker with expertise in the scientific method.
I have known this for a while but now it is official: Greenpeace announces return to Southern Oceans this hunting season to oppose “science” hunt.
Here’s information from Greenpeace website:
From what I have heard, here is the full listing for the vote for Secret Ballots (I’ll get our team on the ground to check these when they can):
YES = 30:
Antigua & Barbuda, Benin, Cambodia, Cameroon, China, Cote d’Ivoire, Dominica,
Gabon, Gambia, Grenada, Guinea, Iceland, Japan, Kiribati, South Korea, Mali, Marshall
Islands, Mauritania, Mongolia, Morocco, Nauru, Nicaragua, Norway, Palau,
Russian Federation, St Kitts & Nevis, St Lucia, St Vincent & the Grenadines,
Suriname, Tuvalu
NO = 33:
Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Belize, Brazil, Chile, Czech
Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, India, Ireland, Israel,
Italy, Luxembourg, Mexico, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Oman, Panama,
Portugal, San Marino, Slovak Republic, South Africa, Spain, Sweden,
Switzerland, UK, USA.
Abstentions = 1:
Solomon Islands
Beats me why land locked countries like Mongolia and Luxembourg have a vote at all. I didnt see many whales in Luxembourg last time I was there.
If they are to be allowed to vote, then why dont the maritime nations get 2 votes to the land locks 1.
Another incompetently organised international body. Was the UN involved in this as well?
OK, what did the media say about this in Sweden and Norway.
According to my daily paper the Swedish delegate said that some nations may have “pushed the wrong button” by mistake.
Norwegain paper ” Dagbladet” was very neutral in its statements , showing one of Greenpeace’s most bloody pics from the Antarctic hunt.
A previous statement by Dagbladet said that the Norwegain whaling and sealing industries are just symbols.
To George: ” Den norske sel – och hvalfangsten er idag bara symbolnaeriger.”
My god. Not only a dogs breakfast in terms of organisation, but the reps who attend dont know which button to press.
The ridiculous being managed by the blind.
Hopefully the delegates are not in charge of nuclear weapons!
Very interesting that Belize voted No against Japan on both votes, in view of the fact that many NGO´s claim that Japan has bought and paid for Belize´s vote 😉
More power to the St. Kitts and Nevis’ representative, Cedric Liburd, for forcefully pointing out the hypocrisy of nations such as NZ, UK, USA and Oz amongst others for making self righteous comments about transparency whist they vote for example at CITES meeting in secret ballots… it´s been quite refreshing in it´s way to watch him tell various nations to get stuffed 😉 I look forward to more from Cedric….
Today Togo will also be voting. They had their voting rights reinstated yesterday, after the two votes completed.
Should be interesting listening again today 🙂
Hi David,
Togo will be voting as well as another country ( unfortunately I have forgot which)!
Hey, I need some spell checking, the forgotten nation was some African country I guess!
The nation is Cameroon.
Hi again,
According to BBC the nation is Cameroon, but I really don’t know if this is correct.
Ann,
I have seen all sorts of confused reports from the western media. I was watching proceedings last night, and Cameroon participated in both votes, while The Gambia participated in only the second vote. Togo was the only one still yet to vote.
Today all nations are on deck, with the exception of Kenya, Costa Rico, Peru (who never ever turn up) and Guatemala who have only just joined the IWC this time around.
Voting should be very close on all issues, and I would not be surprised at all if the anti-sustainable use nations fail to gain a majority on any of the issues coming up.
Times have changed, and some countries no longer think it necessary to hunt whales. In fact, in some countries sustainable industries like whale watching have been commercially successful. Japan asks for other nations to respect its right to hunt whales, but as has been pointed out above by David, whales are migratory. What about the respect for the countries that don’t want whaling, that have whales migrating and/or breeding in their waters, and that have livelihoods tied up in the sustainable non-lethal use of these animals?
The issue of the way these animals are killed is also something a lot of people have an issue with, and is largely ignored on blogs like this. The Japanese don’t see the IWC as a forum to discuss animal killing methods or TTD details, and yet they support a business that puts animals through obvious distress and pain. Most other meat industries have very strict guidelines on animal welfare and minimising animal suffering. Other businesses like bear-bile farming ( highlighted previously on Jennifer’s blog), and the ‘domestic’ mammal fur industry in China have no such animal welfare considerations, and are abhorred by many. I don’t think anyone supported the use of sun/moon bears in Jennifer’s post. Why is sustainability the only issue?
Whales appear to be relatively intelligent beings (in human terms) that are capable of feeling distress and pain. In fact humans often elevate themselves above other animals on the basis of our ability to feel and exhibit emotions, such as regret, compassion and so on, and to be able to project our experiences on to other situations in order to make value judgements. It is ironic then that in the 21st century this method of killing is deemed acceptable, for an industry that is not really necessary and is renounced by so many.
Again – limit all whaling to domestic waters only.
Go to the ICJ and make whaling in international waters and sanctuaries an act of piracy.
Let Paul Watson enforce the law.
Problems solved, now and forever.
Because that’s what it comes down to – the Japanese aren’t arguing that they have the right to kill whales – they argue they have the right to kill whales wherever they want.
That is not true for fishing, oil drilling, dumping, long-lining or any other maritime activity.
Where do they get the arrogance to believe that they are so much more special than the rest of the world?
The issue at stake is not if they should or should not hunt whales or where, it is if they can vote via secret ballots.
I thought secret ballots was a cornerstone of a properly functioning democracy.
Rog said :
“The issue at stake is not if they should or should not hunt whales or where, it is if they can vote via secret ballots.
I thought secret ballots was a cornerstone of a properly functioning democracy.”
It is – which makes the statements of those countries who vocally opposed ( and those who voted against )it all the more hypocritical – especially when they vote via secret ballot at CIRES meetings …
I look forward to open ballots next time there´s an election in Oz and the USA and elsewhere – I would love to see how my next door neigbour votes so I can whack him one across the ear if I disagree 😉
I read this recently regarding the vote on Japanese coastal whaling…”On this issue, Japan did not seek to use a secret ballot. Japanese people will wish to know which nations supported them, and which did not.” Need I point out the hypocrisy?
Where did you read that Travis, The Daily Scandal?
Travis Said :
“Need I point out the hypocrisy?”
Yes, please do…
Japan was not proposing blanket secret ballots at the IWC – they were proposing secret ballots for issues on amongst other things, where industrialised nations and NGO´s exert pressure and threats onto smaller developing nations. The IWC already has secret ballots for voting in the Scientific committee chairman and when voting for IWC meeting venues. I assume transparency is not wanted there then for some obscure reason…
In my last post it should read CITES and not CIRES …
Secret ballots are not used at the UN, the ICJ or the EU Commission
Why is transparency such a bad thing? Why is Japan so afraid to let the world see exactly what they’re getting for their money? Hell, they spend so much on bribes, I’m shocked they don’t want the world to see just how almighty and powerful they really are.
Hi Mike,
Secret ballots are used at CITES and partially at the IWC. They are also used by every democratic country when their citizens vote, in order to protect each citizen. Whereas I respect the right of anyone to vote for almost any political party they wish and I´m a pretty peaceful guy, I would happily smack the mouth of anybody I could “see” voting for lets say a neo nazi political party – in order to protect the privacy and rights of the person voting for a neo nazi party, you have secret ballots, so that saves me from imposing my fervent anti-nazi beliefs on others who may wish to support neo nazis and saves them from being harrased from anti – nazi minded people such as myself ( or vice versa for that matter ).
Extrapolate that up to the IWC where you have smaller nations bullied and harrassed by larger, more developed countries, threatened with boycotts as well as delegates having to change hotels daily because radical anti whaling folk are banging on hotel doors and calling to wake them up in the middle of the night and you get the picture.
Transparency is not a bad thing at all, when it is not misused or abused, as it is often the case of smaller, vulnerable countries at the IWC
Rog,
Close. I read it on David@Tokyo’s weblog.
Yeah, Minister Campbell would cut a dashing figure doing the goose set, don’t you think?. Let’s face it, there is no level playing field here. Monetary donations are not a bad thing at all, when they don’t come with strings attached.
Sorry, that is goose step, not set. On the one hand certain people here are advocating for democracy, that people should be able to vote for who they want, secretly, hunt whales, etc. Yet then there are comments about committing violence against people who vote differently from them, which I would have thought was permitted in a democracy. Anti-whaling nations are accussed of threatening smaller, vulnerable nations, on the basis of how they vote at the IWC, which is suggested as being not on. And yet it is OK if you carried out violence against someone who voted differently to you in say a government election. It is OK to smack someone in the mouth, but not bang on people’s door’s and wake them up. Hmmm…..
“Secret ballots are not used at the UN, the ICJ or the EU Commission”
Well, the UN and the ICJ are hardly models of democracy (eg the power of veto in the Security Council) and the EU does not have a constitution…and anyway, the IWC uses secret ballots to elect office bearers, so whats all this loose talk about hypocricy?
McC, to compare individual voting in state elections to motions at International Bodies is not only inaccurate, it is stupid. Case in point – the Oil For Food scandal and any one of a number of UN Scandals. Knowing who voted how is a step in the process.
Japan is bribing countries to join the IWC. To then say the fruit of that crime should be a legal cover-up through parliamentary functioning is, in my opinion, thoroughly and irredeemably corrupt.
The overwhelming majority of the people of the World oppose whaling in any form. Case in point – look at polls, look at the populations of the countries on japan’s side.
Japan needs to stop gerrymandering and abide by the rule of law.
Short of that, the world must recognize that their inherent disrespect for this International Body is transcendant on all international bodies – especially the UN, from which they so wantonly crave, and are completely undeserving, of a seat on the Security Council.
> Japan is bribing countries to join the IWC.
This is nonsense, and one only needs to watch the proceedings at the IWC to realise that this is the case.
We’re talking about 33 nations (34 if you include China) that agree with sustainable use of natural resources, including whales.
To claim that the majority of those nations are only voted that way because they are taking “bribes” amounts to arguing that there is a conspiracy theory that not even Hollywood moviemakers could dream up.
Do you really think that the developing nations of the world are that corrupt?
Do you really think that those nations do not genuinely believe that it is in their interests to stand up for the principle of sustainable use?
FYI
IWC/58/16 – Agenda Item 19
ST KITTS AND NEVIS DECLARATION
St Kitts and Nevis, Antigua & Barbuda, Benin, Cambodia, Cameroon, Cote d’Ivoire, Dominica, Gabon, Gambia, Grenada, Republic of Guinea, Iceland, Japan, Kiribati, Mali, Republic of the Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Mongolia, Morocco, Nauru, Nicaragua, Norway, Republic of Palau, Russian Federation, St Lucia, St Vijncent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, Suriname, Togo, Tuvalu.
EMPHASIZING that the use of cetaceans in many parts of the world including the Caribbean, contributes to sustainable coastal communities, sustainable livelihoods, food security and poverty reduction and that placing the use of whales outside the context of the globally accepted norm of science-based management and rule-making for emotional reasons would set a bad precedent that risks our use of fisheries and other renewable resources;
FURTHER EMPHAZING that the use of marine resources as an integral part of development options is critically important at this time for a number of countries experiencing the need to diversify their agriculture;
UNDERSTANDING that the purpose of the 1946 International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling (ICRW) is to “provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the orderly development of the whaling industry” (quoted from the Preamble to the Convention) and that the International Whaling Commission (IWC) is therefore about managing whaling to ensure whale stocks are not over-harvested rather than protecting all whales irrespective of their abundance;
NOTING that in 1982 the IWC adopted a moratorium on commercial whaling (paragraph 10e of the Schedule to the ICRW) without advice from the Commission’s Scientific Committee that such measure was required for conservation purposes;
FURTHER NOTING that the moratorium which was clearly intended as a temporary measure is no longer necessary, that the Commission adopted a robust and risk-averse procedure (RMP) for calculating quotas for abundant stocks of baleen whales in 1994 and that the IWC’s own Scientific Committee has agreed that many species and stocks of whales are abundant and sustainable whaling is possible;
CONCERNED that after 14 years of discussion and negotiation, the IWC has failed to complete and implement a management regime to regulate commercial whaling;
ACCEPTING that scientific research has shown that whales consume huge quantities of fish making the issue a matter of food security for coastal nations and requiring that the issue of management of whale stocks must be considered in a broader context of ecosystem management since eco-system management has now become an international standard;
REJECTING as unacceptable that a number of international NGOs with self-interest campaigns should use threats in an attempt to direct government policy on matters of sovereign rights related to the use of resources for food security and national development;
NOTING that the position of some members that are opposed to the resumption of commercial whaling on a sustainable basis irrespective of the status of whale stocks is contrary to the object and purpose of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling;
UNDERSTANDING that the IWC can be saved from collapse only by implementing conservation and management measures which will allow controlled and sustainable whaling which would not mean a return to historic over-harvesting and that continuing failure to do so serves neither the interests of whale conservation nor management;
NOW THEREFORE:
* COMMISSIONERS express their concern that the IWC has failed to meet its obligations under the terms of the ICRW and,
* DECLARE our commitment to normalize the functions of the IWC based on the terms of the ICRW and other relevant international law, respect for cultural diversity and traditions of coastal peoples and the fundamental principles of sustainable use of resources, and the need for science-based policy and rulemaking that are accepted as the world standard for the management of marine resources.
Isnt this the same nation that plundered the hardwood forests of SE Asia and found all sorts of excuses for doing so, while at the same time keeping their own forests intact.
Isnt this the same nation that takes mountains of wood chip from Australian forests with our consent but, as with most things run by the incompetent UN the carbon debit isnt attributabe to the Japanese.
We are the suckers that bare that responsibilty even though we are not the end user.
Deviously clever these people
Malcolm,
Whale catch quotas will only be set after advice is given by the IWC’s Scientific Committee on what is safe.
Japan will not set it’s commercial quotas independantly.
Make no mistake about this.
Note that the IWC Scientific Committee comprises almost 200 scientists from around the world, including many scientists from anti-whaling nations.
Mike said
“McC, to compare individual voting in state elections to motions at International Bodies is not only inaccurate, it is stupid. Case in point – the Oil For Food scandal and any one of a number of UN Scandals. Knowing who voted how is a step in the process.”
Really Mike? Both Carter and Campbell compared IWC voting to other national agreements, citing democracy – and last time I looked, in a democracy, secret voting is a cornerstone of each democracy.
You cannot have it both ways – either the anti whaling camp reign in their fundamental fanatics or secret voting is needed – what´s even worse IMO is OZ , NZ and the UK openly consulting with anti whaling NGO´s during the meeting, the very people ultimately responsible for indivdual on site harrassement .. should we discuss hypocricsy here?
Mike also Said ” Japan is bribing countries to join the IWC ”
The US is bribing Israel ( US$ 3 billion in aid each year ) they asked Israel to join less than 8 weeks ago … need I add how Germany was manipulated into joining? Monaco? Switzerland? etc etc etc …. IF and only IF Japan is linking aid to votes, you should give some serious thought to WHO started that process at the IWC – and then start talking here about who is corrupt.
Mike also Said :
”
The overwhelming majority of the people of the World oppose whaling in any form. Case in point – look at polls, look at the populations of the countries on japan’s side. ”
Really? I guees the USA should be the hell out of Iraq then, as the majority of the world was and is still against the Iraq war… you want to go tell them?
Regarding polls … Both a CNN and BBC poll showed a majority of over 60% in favour of commercial whaling … despite a call on the greenpeace activist website for their members to go and vote the opposite ..( in case you are not sure – that means rig the vote 😉
next….
Travis,
If you cannot see the difference between fiction ( a wee story ) to illustrate a point and reality ( whats happening at the IWC ) then I give up ….
Well, Japan, Norway and Iceland are all NATO countries, supporting the US invasion in
Iraq
“Whereas I respect the right of anyone to vote for almost any political party they wish and I´m a pretty peaceful guy, I would happily smack the mouth of anybody I could “see” voting for lets say a neo nazi political party – in order to protect the privacy and rights of the person voting for a neo nazi party, you have secret ballots, so that saves me from imposing my fervent anti-nazi beliefs on others who may wish to support neo nazis and saves them from being harrased from anti – nazi minded people such as myself ( or vice versa for that matter ).”
Which is the fiction bit George? The fact you are a pretty peaceful guy? The analogy you used may have been created for your purposes here, but the statement you would happily smack someone in the mouth is phrased to imply you actually would. Hey, you’re the one telling the story.
“Extrapolate that up to the IWC where you have smaller nations bullied and harrassed by larger, more developed countries, threatened with boycotts as well as delegates having to change hotels daily because radical anti whaling folk are banging on hotel doors and calling to wake them up in the middle of the night and you get the picture.”
Can you please provide some evidence (not heresay) to support these two statements?
“then I give up ….”
Please do.
Travis,
Threats of boycotts against nations and so on are a simple matter of record.
You could look it up for yourself, should you care to do so.
To give you a hint, Dominica was threatened with a boycott in 2003 by a german based NGO. There are of course various other examples.
Other nations have been threatened in recent days as well, by both Ian Campbell and Chris Carter. Campbell threatened any nation that votes with Japan, and Carter expressed that he was angry with the 6 pacific nations who voted with the pro-sustainable use nations on the declaration.
WTH, here’s an example
http://www.hardbeatnews.com/editor/RTE/my_documents/my_files/details.asp?newsid=6880
Travis said :
“Can you please provide some evidence (not heresay) to support these two statements?”
Follow the video feed of the conference, a number of commissioners have complained about this harrassment – if you would like documentary evidence, you´ll have to wait until the IWC publishes the conference proceedings and transcripts…
Actually what High North Alliance, a prowhaling Norwegian organisation stated today in an interview with AP was: ” The power within the IWC is changing, we need compromises , both the anti whaling and pro wahling camps need to sit down and discuss and not screaming extremist viewpoints to each other.”
Travis said : ” Please do ”
In your case I will Travis 😉
david@tokyo – and Rune Frovik called New Zealand “useful idiots”. Name calling, my that is mature.
Lets cut to the chase, its not about whales, its all about GWB.
Andrew,
New Zealand is not about to change it’s vote because a Norwegian aptly described them as “useful idiots”.
Small developing nations though may seriously consider changing their position on whaling when threatened with tourism boycotts.
I’d note that Belize, who previously voted strongly with the pro-sustainable use camp at the IWC, has voted with the anti-whaling camp on every proposal at this year’s meeting.
Belize has also chosen not to speak a single time during the meeting (as far as I could tell). To me, it looks like they changed their position due to foreign influences.
“Belize has also chosen not to speak a single time during the meeting (as far as I could tell). To me, it looks like they changed their position due to foreign influences.”
David, this is as speculative as you say the vote-buying is from anti-whaling supporters. I can’t help but be amazed by the double-talk that goes on here (I was going to use the word hypocrisy, but thought I’d spare Rog from it).
In an interview in Norway’s major paper Aftenposten, Norway’s IWC Commissioner Mr. Klepsvik stated that most probably Norway will NOT side with Japan and vote out Greenpeace from the IWC. The Norwegian IWC Commissioner also pointed out the importance of NGOs participating in the IWC.
david – sure, but name calling is just not part of rational debate. Why should I take a guy like Rune Frovik seriously when that is how he behaves in public. It is childish and comes across badly. Remember, much of this debate is a public relations exercise. How on earth does this help? The pro-whalers are calling anti-whalers emotional and irrational. What is name calling?
I am not emotionally anti-whaling. I want to hear all the rational arguments.
Japan to “Save” the International Whaling Commission Great news!
After Japan has Saved the IWC, then next they’re sure to Save the Whales.
If we vote on their side at the IWC, perhaps they’ll agree to Save Australia too. We could use a helping hand..
Anne, you said
”
Norway’s IWC Commissioner Mr. Klepsvik stated that most probably Norway will NOT side with Japan and vote out Greenpeace from the IWC”
What he Actually said was this :
Greenpeace ut?
Han vil foreløpig ikke si hvordan Norge vil stille seg til et eventuelt forslag fra Japan om å frata Greenpeace sin observatørstatus i IWC.
– Japan er som kjent ikke særlig glad i Greenpeace. Vi må se et eventuelt forslag først, før vi kan ta stilling til det. Greenpeace må også opptre i samsvar med lover og regler. Men i prinsippet er vi for åpenhet og deltakelse fra miljøorganisasjonene, sier Klepsvik til NTB.
Roughly Translated :
He will at the moment not say how Norway will position themselves on an eventual proposal from Japan to Remove Greenpeace´s observer status at the IWC ..
Japan are known not to be overly fond of Greenpeace. We must see any eventual proposal first before we can take a position on it. Greenpeace must also take note/responsibilty( samsvar) with rules and laws. But in principle, we are for openess and participation from NGO´s. said Klepsvik to the Norwegian news NTB.
Dear anne,
.. I have the greatest respect for you and your positions, but shame on you for distorting what Klepsvik actually said – it reflects badly on you as well as the organisation you are a member of ( Greenpeace )
George,
The distorton that you call it was accidential, if you later check out the Greenpeace’s website you will see that I actually wrote:
” The issue of Greenpeace’s observer status, with Japan’s proposal to expel them from the IWC for “Their interference with whale research” last year in the Antarctic will come up tomorrow”.
However, I read in Norwegian media, that the Norwegian IWC Commissioner, Mr. Klepsvik, stated that Norway MAY not support this proposal…”
Apologies to Mr Klepsvik for this distortion. Why I mentioned this was it seemed that Japan can NOT take it for granted that Norway always supports their proposals. Let’s se what actually happens…
And dear George, this is not the first time you think that I’m some kind of a spokesman for Greenpeace, my comments reflects only my own opinions and have NOTHING to do with Greenpeace, as you English speaking persons call it ” I run my own race”.
One more point George…. actually how many times in Norwegian media have you read about Japanese “scientific” whaling without the media using apostrophs;)? Hmmm….
Wow, that was a long time coming Ann 🙂
It had occurred to me that Jennifer’s use of apostrophes around ‘scientific’ means that she doesn’t belive that japan whales for genuine scientific reasons either!
Anne Said :
“And dear George, this is not the first time you think that I’m some kind of a spokesman for Greenpeace, my comments reflects only my own opinions and have NOTHING to do with Greenpeace, as you English speaking persons call it ” I run my own race””
?? Really? when was the first time? I´ve been posting here for I think two or three days now and I don´t recall any first time ( I may be wrong of course )… care to point out where I assert you are a spokesperson for Greenpeace??
Thing is though Anne, as “official” greenpeace spokesperson(s) avoid Forums such as this like the plague for whatever obscure reasons, as far as I have read so far, you are the only greenpeace member who admits to being a greenpeace member ;O) so you´ll forgive me if I have associated your words with Greenpeace – in future, I´ll ask you if any statements you make are official GP statements …
Kind of reminds of the Senet incident though Anne, where Greenpeace activists cut the rope to a harpooned and not yet dead minke whale, thus making sure that the animal suffered more … GP´s “official” statement was that the activists did this themselves and were not acting on behalf of Greenpeace – kinda ridiculous / hilarious in view of the fact that they had been transported there on a Greenpeace ship and were driving a Greenpeace zodiac ;O)…
Personally Anne, I wonder how many of GP´s distortions are “accidental” it´s kind of underhand and quite frankly, a lousy tactic … I´m sure many reading Jennifer´s forum would appreciate the possibility of asking an “official” GP spokesperson some pointed questions on GP´s policies and staements – However, I give that possibility of an official GP spokesperson appearing here a snowball´s chance in hell first though…. 😉
Despite lack of a secret ballot the IWC have voted to widen the debate;
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1666352.htm
I must admit, I didn’t realise that “useful idiot” was an established term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
Apologies for wasting space if I am the only one who did not know this.
How many people who are alive now would have starved to death were it not for the ‘sustainable resource’ that is the world’s whale population? The irony is that most Japanese people wouldn’t even notice if the little whale meat available disappeared from the supermarket shelves for good. Slaughtering magnificent mammals like these for the sake of an unpopular off-the-wall – in Japanese parlance ‘maniac’ – culinary option doesn’t make sense. BTW, I feel like peacock for tomorrow night’s dinner. Where’s my gun!
George ,
Everyone who has followed David’s blog knows you are JM!
Hi Anne,
in one word, .. wrong .. but hey, think what you like 😉 I do know JM personally, but thats another kettle of fish…
And George , JM or ANON pops up like myself when we discuss Norwegian whaling , his favorite theme is obviously this Senet incident and Greenpeace’s direct actions in Norway in the 90’s.
Anne ..
where do you think JM gets a lot of his / her information from? … no matter, believe what you wish …
Back to the IWC meeting …
Powerful and pointed comments from Denmark on the whale killing/ welfare debate … pointed out that penthricite grenades require a component from a “certain” country – that country has now prohibited export of this ” component ” to Norway. As Denmark pointed out – once stocks of this particular “component” run out, Norway cannot produce any more penthricite grenades .. and that means a return to using cold harpoons .. yet another example of the hypocricy involved of Anti whaling countries at the IWC
In Addition. Denmark commented on the quality of the papers presented at the recent whale killing methods workshop – ( denmark´s first attendance ) he was very critical of the science involved in most of the papers
Israel was asked to join. Israel paid its own way.
Unlike, say, Togo who showed up with a paper bag full of cash.
As for secret balloting as a bell weather of democracy? Look at the list of nations supporting Japan – Russia, China, Mauritania. yeah. Real bastions of democracy there.
The principle of sustainable use only applies if there is an actual use for the resource. There simply isn’t for whales. Japan’s private investors said so when they divested from the fleet. Which is why the Japanese Government is now directly subsidizing the whaling program. Poll after poll shows japanese people don’t like whale meat and the mountains of whale sitting in freezers testify to that.
There is no question that what is going on with Japan has almost nothing to do with whaling. It is, as the commentator said, simply national obstinacy run amok.
As for David let me say this. I am against whaling, but honestly its not a real big issue for me.
I am against manipulating International Bodies to suit an agenda. Pressure is fine, campaigning is fine. Boycotts are fine.
Bribery is another issue.
Japan is a corrupt force in international affairs. In my view, as long as they remain sidelined on the UN and off the Security Council where they don’t belong, you can line your pockets with Yen til your hearts delight
“Israel was asked to join. Israel paid its own way”
Togo was asked to join – Togo paid it´s own way – in cash too 😉
What I find incredible is that you see a difference between the USA “asking” Israel to Join and say Japan ” asking ” Togo to Join
Israel had no intention of joining till asked to by an anti whaling country, the USA, who incidentally give $3 billion in aid to Ísrael a year and yet you claim that any Japanese influence on Togo is wrong …
“Norway cannot produce any more penthricite grenades .. and that means a return to using cold harpoons”
They have a choice, and that is be humane and don’t use them at all. If they know that using cold harpoons is going to cause even more suffering, then what sort of people are they for choosing to do so?
“he was very critical of the science involved in most of the papers”
The issue of TTD and humane killing is very difficult, so he can be as critical as he likes. Not everyone is going to agree with it. The fact remains that the practice casues distress and suffering to the animals. Saying that other animals also die in cruel circumstances is not a reason to condone the killing methods of whales.
“who incidentally give $3 billion in aid to Ísrael”
Do you know the proportion of Jewish people in the US George? Do you know their involvement in Wall Street? Do you see the picture?
Your tone used to Ann was uncalled for (and appears to be personal). I hardly think a GP official would be too interested in contributing here. For a start, one would hope they make better use of their time. If people want GP’s position, surely they can go to a GP site and ask fair and balanced questions, hoepfully with a bit more courtesy than often appears here (and certainly at David’s site). I’m not aware of many large, international companies allowing any member of staff to speak on hehalf of them on any issue they want. Besides, why single out GP? Why not IFAW, Sea Shepherd, Humane Society, etc.? Why don’t all the world’s researchers comment on all the world’s blogs whenever there is an issue raised concerning their area of expertise? Because gee, I have seen a whole heap replying to the various issues raised in Jennifer’s other commentaries.
I have to admit, I could have pinned you for JM too. Pity that means there must be two of you…..
OK, who is this ANON?
McC, you cannot possibly be so simple-minded as to believe the situations are comparable.
Israel is a predominant player on the world stage. I doubt you could find Togo on a map.
Israel is a major political force and sustainable economic power. I doubt you could tell me what kind of government Togo even has.
The aid received by Israel is in the form of weapons used to protect itself against nut-job Arabs. We have never asked Israel for any quid pro quo.
Togo received a substantial aid package from japan immediately prior to joining the IWC – as also, coincidentally happened, with the marshall and solomon islands and other “nations”.
And the qpq is, as you know, unless you are either incredibly naive, stupid or German, was to vote the Japs way at the IWC.
And when Togo couldn’t pay its bill they mysteriously show up two days later with a paper bag full of American dollars they probably just forgot about in the cookie jar.
Why is this so hard for you to believe? Japan has been VERY VERY PUBLIC that this is exactly their intent – to “lure” pro-whaling nations onto the IWC.
You deny what they themselves have long said is exactly what they’re doing.
Rog,
In Jennifer’s thread “Norway to kill more whales”
http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives/001326.html
George or JM pop up as Anon.
From the UK Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article1090875.ece
It is spanking new, the fisheries centre in the tranquil harbour of St Kitts in the West Indies, where small boats were bobbing at anchor in the sunshine yesterday. One warehouse has already been built, while the shell of a larger new building is taking shape. And no attempt is being made to hide who is paying for it.
A Japanese flag, fluttering alongside the flag of St Kitts and Nevis, informs passers-by the project for fisheries development is being funded by the Japanese government.
The project is costing a total of $5.6m (£3m). That is the sort of money Japan is prepared to pay an impoverished Caribbean state in return for its vote in the International Whaling Commission (IWC), in its mission to secure control of the institution and eventually overturn the 20-year international moratorium on commercial whaling.
And from the Japanese point of view, it is money very well spent.
In the course of the voting at the IWC in St Kitts which opened on Friday, St Kitts delegates voted “yes”to every vote called by Japan, culminating in the key ballot over the so-called “St Kitts Declaration” late on Sunday night – a resolution pronouncing the moratorium invalid and calling for it to be scrapped.”
I must ask – why is St. Kitts even in the IWC? Why are the Solomon Islands, the Marshall Islands, Tuvalo, Antigua, Barbuda, Grenada, Kiribati, Mali, Nauru, Palau, St Lucia, St Vincent & the Grenadines. These aren’t even real freaking countries. So they have a flag and a piece of land. So does Alabama. Can they sign up? Can Alaska? Who gives a good goddamn what the people of Tuvalu think.
Seriously DO ANY OF YOU??? Come on.
Sure, inclusiveness is fine at the UN where the structure is designed to keep these hinky dink Island dwellers from having any real impact, but for the love of God, all those countries put together don’t equal California in people, money or land mass.
Screw the secret ballot – for real reform, the IWC needs to limit its membership to countries where sandals aren’t the national footwear.
Mike,
Thongs are the national footwear in Oz, are they not? Perhaps the issue is not necessarily why these countries are there (and let’s be respectful of them), but how they got there, which you have illustrated quite clearly. The point about populations of nations, with perhaps more Brazilians being anti-whaling than Tuvaluans are pro-whaling, is unfortunately not taken into consideration at the IWC. If Tuvalu votes to whale, the Brazilians have to lump it. That is an example of the respect for cultures and nations that Japan begs we have, ironically.
Norway cannot produce any more penthricite grenades .. and that means a return to using cold harpoons.
“They have a choice, and that is be humane and don’t use them at all. If they know that using cold harpoons is going to cause even more suffering, then what sort of people are they for choosing to do so?”
Norway has consistantly responded to whaling welfare criticms and whale killing welfare issues in good faith and worked with other IWC countries to develop better and more humane methods Travis – the anti whaling country concerned is not acting in good faith. So if Norway or any other country using penthricite greneades needs to go back to using a less humane method ( incidentally, Alaskan inuit amongst others have started using these greneades) then to suggest that they are at fault is at the very least, disingenious.
“who incidentally give $3 billion in aid to Ísrael”
“”Do you know the proportion of Jewish people in the US George? Do you know their involvement in Wall Street? Do you see the picture?””
Travis.. Please tell me the difference between Japan asking Togo to Join and the US asking Israel other than that Togo votes Pro and Israel votes anti..
“Your tone used to Ann was uncalled for (and appears to be personal).”
Anne is a grown woman ( and an exceedingly nice and friendly one at that – I´ve met her ) and has participated on forums such as these AFAIK for a while – she knows the importance of accurate information, especially when translating a language that many people on a forum may not uunderstand – So, if she claims that a person ( Klepsvik ) says one thing, when in fact he is saying another – she should expect to be challenged if caught out whether accidental or not ( you did read that I have the greatest respect for anne did´nt you ….?) nothing personal about it – anne was caught out making a false statement, whether intentional or otherwise …
“I hardly think a GP official would be too interested in contributing here.”
Shame really, it´s folk who bother to reply in forums like this that are actually interested in the subjects – the average joe on the street most likley knows little or could not care less .. but then again, on forums such as this, those who take the time to discuss the subjects probably have more knowledge of the facts, something that GP tends to play fast and loose with on occassion…
“For a start, one would hope they make better use of their time. If people want GP’s position, surely they can go to a GP site and ask fair and balanced questions, hoepfully with a bit more courtesy than often appears here (and certainly at David’s site).”
People often do just that – I believe David did just that a while back …
“I’m not aware of many large, international companies allowing any member of staff to speak on hehalf of them on any issue they want. ”
Large international companies? GP is supposed to be a charity – and as such, have a moral responsibility to be above board and squeaky clean… or do you disagee?
“Besides, why single out GP? Why not IFAW, Sea Shepherd, Humane Society, etc.?”
I´m critical of all three ( to various degrees), what do you want to discuss about them ? 😉
“Why don’t all the world’s researchers comment on all the world’s blogs whenever there is an issue raised concerning their area of expertise?”
Dunno Travis, why don´t you ask them? I do see two posting in Jennifers forum on the whaling issue – me and Peter Corkerton ( Hi Peter BTW, I have a bunch of images of yoou doing your thing in the zodiac from Tysfjord a few years back – email me if you want some copies )
I would imagine though Travis is that the reason is that most see it as a waste of their time and not worth the bother – I know that I won´t bother shortly as I´ll be out at sea for extended periods of time collecting data and have a lot of other things to do when I get home… hope that answers that question …
“Because gee, I have seen a whole heap replying to the various issues raised in Jennifer’s other commentaries.”
ho hum
“I have to admit, I could have pinned you for JM too. Pity that means there must be two of you…..”
hoho .. personal indeed Travis … and no, you are wrong … whenever I post on the internet, I post under my actual name, so that anybody who wishes to can check my credentials … in other words .. who are you travis? is that your real name? what do you do for a living, is it involved with whales in any shape or form? are you a member of an anti whaling NGO? which one?
As for Mike, well, anyone using “hinky dink island dwellers” ´to describe the inhabitiants of another country deserves no reply
Anne ..
“”Rog,
In Jennifer’s thread “Norway to kill more whales”
http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives/001326.html
George or JM pop up as Anon.””
Final comment – not me, & I seriously doubt JM either ( he´s not around to ask at the moment )
George,
I have posted on Jennifer’s forum concerning whaling, and I am a researcher, but I am a female, so maybe that affects my credibility?
I would be interested in hearing what research you do, and what sort of data you will be collecting.
Back to the subjest at hand – Interesting article on the BBC website..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5093684.stm
That of course should be “subject”
Mike
You say screw the secret ballot and limit membership to those not using sandals.I reckon thats getting closer.
What about limiting it to all maritime nations ie ones with a coastline.
Perhaps then one could further bias the result by giving a extra points to those with a tourist industry, that uses whales as part of this industry.
It doesnt surprise me one bit that the Japanese want to continue to use a barbaric method of killing, to get to product they dont need, and for which the price is falling. Someone had to say it.
Libby,
Field researcher – I collect the data – not analyse it ( though I do work on Photo ID analysis occassionally )
http://www.iwcoffice.org/_documents/sci_com/SC58docs/SC-58-RMP4.pdf
Look under cruise summaries, you´ll find my name there. I also work as a volunteer with the Norwegian Killer whale project in Tysfjord as a field researcher, collecting ID´s behavioural data etc etc (almost every fall/winter since 1993 ) I´m currently working on ecosystem surveys ( cetacean component ) in the north atlantic amongst other projects.
BTW, it was Travis who asked the question, not me – I only knew of two as I stated above
Morning George,
Is Anna still around? I mean the orca.
” Morning George,
Is Anna still around? I mean the orca.”
Depends on who you ask Anne .. the name anna has been used by a bunch of people to describe different killer whales, but if you mean the juvenile female with the two small black spots on her right side eyepatch, then yes….at least she was during the 2004 season ( I skipped last year )
Incidentally, Somebody from Greenpeace AU should have a look at correcting this on their website :
” Whales will use the St Kitts declaration to infer that the IWC has accepted that whales eat too much fish. ”
Or perhaps it´s not a mistake ;op
I was thinking about captain Per Ole Lund’s special killer whale Anna.
Per ole also calls a couple anna 😉 He means the one with the eye spots though … there are actually three or four different juveniles that do this chin lifting behaviour and come to the boats – it´s actually quite worrying as the boat trafic can be horrendous there at times, especially at weekends – some young juveniles are getting quite conditioned to approaching boats which is not really in their best interests as seen by the injuries to “stumpy” …
If you are up there this year, drop into Korsnes for a coffee – I´ll most likely be on T.Simila´s boat this season .. Per ole does not have Leonora anymore by the way – just for your info..
OK George, thanks for the offer, who knows we may have our own IWC meeting;-)
” OK George, thanks for the offer, who knows we may have our own IWC meeting;-)”
LOL … As long as the politeness is better than at the IWC, you´re on 😉
When were you in Tysfjord last by the way?
Actually I must make you disappointed , I have never been in Tysfjord during the killer whale season, but there are widespread rumours about this killer whale Anna. I have also seen photographies of Anna by Frode Jensen in some papers.
It is quite easy to travel to Tysfjord from Stockholm, you just take the train to Narvik and then the bus to Tysfjord or you can travel by car on road E6.
Hi George
I didn’t realise you held these views.
By the way, it’s Corkeron, without a “t” in it – exactly the same mistake made by the person who was slagging me on David’s site a while back, but too gutless to name themselves. So you might want to pass that little correction on to them, too. 🙂
Say hi to Tiu when you see her.
Peter
Hi Peter,
I´ve been pro – sustainable use for yonks … the question is whether a use is sustainable or not, I´m confident that Norwegian whaling is but as with everything, only time will tell. no idea who you are referring to BTW – will have a trawl through David´s site later..
I´ll be seeing Tiu in a couple of weeks and will pass on your regards 😉
George
To Peter,
Hi again Peter,
Just found the thread you are referring to – does´nt look much like slagging to me but then again,I´m not the one it was aimed at … just my opinion of course .. as to who they may be – sorry, don´t know – I´m fairly sure it was not my friend, I´ll explain why via email – BTW, do you still have the same email? I have two Norsk ones for you – or easier, send me an email at whalephotonospam@gmail.com – remove the nospam of course
George
Latest news from killer whale research in Norway and Iceland presented at Acoustical Society of America’s conference. It’s about how herrings escape killer whales. Very interesting and major news in my Swedish paper and in Verdens Gang.
Hmm, but I dare not to translate this…
http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=120597
Hi anne
Coward ;op …
It´s about herring farting during hunts by killer whales on herring schools …. ;O)
I have not read that particular paper but I do know that Bob Batty and co won an ignobel prize ( I think thats what its called ) for discovering this – I have quite a few images of bob and co researching this in the field …LOL … and no, it´s not as bad as it sounds …LOL
Anne,
Which swedish newspaper?
George,
The Swedish version’s name is Farting for life!!!LOL
Makes you wonder how they carried out the research???
Svenska Dagbladet:
http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/vetenskap/did_13001016.asp
And the Swedish paper “Svenska Dagbladet” that published this article under “Science” is our most respectable paper.
Here´s the original ignobel article ..
http://www.fishupdate.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/2035/Ig_Nobel_Prize_awarded_for_fish_fart_research.html
and another link
http://www.odu.edu/sci/cqfe/in%20the%20news/news%203.htm
Should you doubt what Travis said…
“I read this recently regarding the vote on Japanese coastal whaling…”On this issue, Japan did not seek to use a secret ballot. Japanese people will wish to know which nations supported them, and which did not.” Need I point out the hypocrisy?”
I did not read it I witnessed it as I was there as an observer and could not believe my ears.
So if you doubt the statement then you will be calling me a liar.
Martin,
I was watching the proceedings as well via live Internet feed.
Your claims of hypocrisy are laughable.
Well David, I did not get the joke !
Perhaps you might explain what I missed.
Dear Jennifer.
I am sending this to all the Australian addresses I can find.
In 1943 pure evil reigned in the world. The whole world knew about Hitler. Only a few knew about Oda, the Jap who taught them how to kill themselves. If you are a Christian and you know about the presence of evil, you will know that Hitler had the powers from the ages and knew the role he would play. Oda also knew the powers of the ages and drew upon them to control his army. He taught the officers at the academy the ceremony they must perform to reach the other side, a hero.
God has his soldiers and truly believes in war to fight the forces of evil. One of Gods soldiers rose to the occasion and trained himself from birth to work with God to rid the earth of evil. Gods wrath formed in him. When he met Oda face to face he drew upon that wrath to rid the world of evil once and for all.
The devil found a way to outsmart God again. He concocted a lie and pretended the second evilist person on earth should go down in history as a brave hero instead of a shivering coward.
The story of his death must be revealed because the Japs arrogance must be put in its place.
The story is 100% true. Myself, Donna, my sister Jan and brothers Peter and Paul Hill are still living through the aftermath. I wrote this story originally as part of a family history for my daughter.
I’ll start it of with a quote from Harry S. Truman: “When even one American-who has done nothing wrong-is forced by fear to shut his mind and close his mouth-then all Americans are in peril”
On July the 4th my father would have turned one hundred, if he was still alive. His memory must be honoured.
George Thomas Gordon Hill, born on the 4th of July 1908. The great grandson of George Thomas Hill, who came to Tasmania in chains on the Atlas in 1832. He was born at a place they called the Trap Hut. In the municipality of Bothwell, Tasmania. He was the seventh child born to Lena and John Hill. Jock as he was known by, taught all the boys how to trap and hunt from the age they could walk out of the house. By the time Dad was eight years old they had twelve children.
It was 1915, The Great War had started. All the men had left the farms to go and fight. Jock was a tough hard man who ruled with a iron fist. Times were hard and there wasn’t much money to go around. After learning the basics of English and Maths, Dad left school. Jock secured, Dad and his older brother Jack, work on one of the local farms.
Dad became a farm hand. He loved to work and did the work of a man, from sun up to sundown and sometimes late into the night. He wasn’t spared anything, the work was back breaking. He learnt everything there was to know about working a farm and farming livestock.
Being only a little kid, he mucked up often. There was always someone to dish out punishment and he copped a flogging many times with the words, “That’ll teach you”.
Unfortunately, Dad never did learn not to muck up and luckily they didn’t break his spirit. In those days you grew up fast because if you could do the work of a man. You were allowed to drink like one.
Saturday morning, everyone would clean themselves up and go into town. First it was off to the shop to buy the form guide, then into the pub to study the form. (Dad knew every thoroughbred racehorse’s blood line all the way back to the beginning. So reading the form guide was like reacquainting himself with life long friends). Next off to the bookmakers or the SP bookie to put a bet on the gee gees (or donkeys if they lost). Then into the public bar for another beer. This sequence happened right up until the last race was run. If dad won big he would go in and shout the bar. Everyone would cheer. Dads head would swell. It wouldn’t take long until everyone was blind rotten drunk. The piano would fire up and soon everyone was singing at the top of their voices.
Closing time came too quick and the call for last drinks was dreaded. After swilling down the last round, they stumbled out. Then staggered around to the stables to find their horse. Many private parties were organised and it was back to someone’s house, where there would be dancing and singing and the odd game of gin rummy. If they happened to run out of drinks, they went to the many local, sly grog shops, which operated out of someone’s back lane. In the early hours of the morning everyone set of for home. All the sleeping drunks were lifted on their horses and set of in the right direction. Dad said, “Many times my horse took me home while I slept on top. Only stopping so I could open the gates. If only I could have taught him how to open a gate”.
He grew up to be 6 feet tall, charismatic, lean and muscular, a cheeky grin, a larrikin character and a twinkle in his eye. He grew up like all the kids in the bush, a horse and dog his best friends, a rifle in his hand and a shotgun slung in the saddle. He was an excellent shot, he never missed. He didn’t know how to. He worked hard and played hard, he was a wild spirit who broke horses and could ride like the wind. Along with learning how to drink, he learnt how to fight. He often said he was independent and had an independent spirit, after all he was born on the 4th of July.
He had strong role models who taught him what it was to be a man. The only way to be a man in those days was to go to war. Every able bodied man that lived in Tasmania had gone to war. The boys looked up to them and saw them as shining heroes. He was taught, war would either make or break you. He was told about cowards and what the community thought of them. Going to war was the only way to prove you weren’t a coward. It didn’t matter how many fights you won at the pub, nothing could prove you weren’t a coward except going to a foreign country and facing the enemy. Then you either had to die or come home a hero. He worked as a farm hand at various places around the central highlands until the second world war broke out.
He couldn’t wait, he was busting to go, here was his chance to go to war just like his father who was a Bushman in the Boar War. Dad was proud of what is father did, he wanted his chance to do the same, no longer did he have to rest on his father’s laurels, now he had the chance to be the man he wanted to be. He went into Bothwell and enlisted on the 20th of October 1939 and was given the number TX137.
He said he wasn’t much good at reading and writing. It was the infantry for him. He wasn’t officer material anyway.
Off to basic training at the new Brighton barracks. Where they were drilled in marching and taught how to thrust a bayonet into a Hessian bag stuffed with straw. Dad ever eager stepped forward when volunteers were called for. He soon learnt never volunteer for anything. Let them choose your fate, don’t choose it for yourself. They all whinged training was a waste of time. They wanted to get to war and get it over and done with. All this mucking around wasn’t getting them anywhere.
Dad was thirty one years old. One of the oldest in the group and a bit set in his ways. That was knocked out of him real quick. Most of the men hadn’t cut their mothers apron strings yet and were all a bit green around the gills. Dad wasn’t much better. He’d been in the bush all his life. However they needed a bit of guidance so Dad decided he would take them all under his wing and teach them how to drink and have a bet.
On the 9th of December 1939, HQ, HQ Coy and A coy, marched out of Brighton camp, en route to Rutherford, New South Wales, where they joined B, C, and D Coy. The Canecutters, the big men from North Queensland. They were all banded together and became the 18th brigade.
The Tasmanians and the Queenslanders hated each other and spirited competition aided the Tasmanians obvious lack of coordination.
Ending up at Ingleburn they joined the 2/12 Battalion that was formed a couple of weeks prior.
On the 5th of May, 1940 they embarked on the ‘Queen Mary’ for the Middle East. Meeting up with a convoy of British and Australian warships at Freetown, Sierra Leone. On the 8th of June, 1940 plans were changed due to Hitler’s Army capturing France and Mussolini taking their side and joining in.
The Mother Country needed help urgently so they all sailed straight to Gourock, Scotland, arriving on the 16th of June, 1940. Then a quick train trip down to Salisbury, England where they stayed until orders were to sail to the Middle East.
On the 17th of November, 1940 they left, sailing all the way to the bottom of Africa and up the east side. They arrived at Alexandria, Egypt, on New Years Eve, 1940 and camped at Ikingi Maryut.
After thorough planning and fine tuning, they saw their first action at Giarabub, on the 19th of March, 1941, where HQ Coy fought along side the 2/9 Australian Infantry Battalion and successfully captured the Italian garrisoned town.
The battalion left Ikingi Maryut on the 5th of April, 1941 and arrived at Tobruk, Libya and reinforced the 9th Division. There George Thomas Hill (he dropped Gordon), the farm boy from the guts of Tasmania became one of the Rats that Rommel couldn’t shake.
Dad kept most of what happened in Tobruk to himself but every now and then he would gloss over parts. By the cheeky grin on his face when he related his stories and by his character, you knew he was always up to something.
There he earned the nickname Smokey, from what he called, “Trading as The Black-market man”. He traded the tobacco and rum the non-smokers and non-drinkers didn’t use. He built himself up a nice little business, even bartering with the locals and swapping this for that. It was a role he fell into by accident. What started out as scrounging smokes for his cobbers, turned into a full time business where he was relied upon to deliver.
He spoke of great pride and fondness of his time in Tobruk. He said , “It was the adventure of a lifetime”. Except when he thought of the Poms and how they treated the Australians. He would say, “Those pommy bastards. They think they are better than us but we showed them. They couldn’t have won the bloody war without us”.
He also learnt to whistle. The soldiers whistled tunes whenever they marched. They whistled Waltzing Matilda to let everyone know the Australians had arrived. From then on Dad whistled everywhere he went.
He said, “The worst thing about the place is the, ‘bloody sand’, it gets into everything”.
That led him to talk of his feet. During basic training he learnt the most important thing was to take care of his rifle and look after his feet and he was glad he listened. Sand in your boots was a problem. Blisters were a problem. They led to infections and severe complications. Dad was proud of his feet. He said, “You cant get into the Army if you have flat feet. High arches mean I can walk forever and never get sore feet. People with flat feet can’t walk long distances. So they are no good on long marches”. He explained, how he would take his boots off any chance he got. Empty the sand out and let his feet ‘breathe’ (the opposite happened in New Guinea. Where the whole place was a mud pit. That was worse. He had to dry out his socks and feet, otherwise his feet would start to rot).
The 2/12th assisted in the defence of Tobruk until they heard the sound of bagpipes. They couldn’t believe ithey had anticipated this moment for so long. They never envisaged a bunch of ‘bloody Scots’. That truly tickled their fancy. At least they could talk to them, being kindred spirits against the Poms.
On the nights of the 26th and 27th of August 1941, the 2/12th pulled out. Leaving this time for Palestine. For more training, before assisting in the hold of Syria in late September. They returned to Palestine in early January, for even more training.
The Aussies were itching to get home. They heard how Toe Joe (Togo Hideki, Japanese prime minister and war minister), was on Australia’s doorstep. They had no idea what was happening at home. Mostly they imagined Australia was overrun by Japs and the whole population was enslaved. The mail was severely censored. They got tiny snippets of information and tried to piece it together. They had no idea what the Yanks were doing and prayed they had come to Australia’s rescue. All they did was worry about home and wonder, what’s the point of fighting in someone else’s war half way around the world when we have a war of your own to fight at home. They were all battle hardened and were desperate to get to New Guinea to help the conscripts.
The officers had an uphill battle trying to keep their moral up Until they set sail for Australia from Suez on the 12th of February, 1942. Sailing via Bombay. Singing all the way home they touched Australian soil at Adelaide on the 28th of March 1942.
All the debts were tallied in Smokey’s little black book and on realising how disgusting it was, to be owed money by his cobbers. He threw it overboard.
On the 17th of August 1942 they Arrived in Milne Bay, Papua and between the 31st of August and the 4th of September, 1942 they battled with the Japs and cleaned them up.
Somewhere along the line, Dad was given a promotion to corporal and being an excellent shot was made a sniper. Dad and Roy Swindells, a mate he grew up with, took the assignment of sitting in a tree, keeping an eye on a Japanese unoccupied airport.
Dad was given the job he was born to do. It was the one thing he had done his whole life, right up to this point. All the months spent in the bush, just him and his gun, he was being mentally prepared to outlast this mission.
They both chose a tree on opposite sides of the airport and settled in. The trees they chose had a view that stretched as far as the eye could see. There Dad sat for three months, his hands wrapped around his rifle and his body wrapped in mosquito netting. His beard had grown down to his chest. He lived on bully beef and dry biscuits and water was caught during rainfalls, which happened every day.
Night and day he stared out into the distance and learned to sleep with his eyes open, ever watchful. On the 19th January, 1943, he was in the middle of one of those sleeps when he heard voices.
Three Jap soldiers making for the airport, they were coming his way and they were close. He picked off the soldiers. Then climbed down to have a scrounge around and see what he could scavenge off them. He was going about his business, when he heard a noise. He turned around to find a Japanese officer pointing his pistol at him. The officer fired his pistol, the bullet landing in Dad’s throat. (He said, “It felt like a bee sting”).
The officer had a look of shock and confusion on his face. He went ghostly pale and started shaking like a leaf. Dad grabbed the pistol out of his hand. Switched it from single shot to automatic and then fired the magazine into him.
By this time, Dad realising he had been shot and realising who the “Fat pig of an officer was with his immaculate uniform, looking like he just stepped out of a barbers shop”. Dad flew into a rage.
He laid his boots into him. That wasn’t enough. He started jumping on him with all the force he could muster. All the while seething through his teeth, he told him for all hell to hear, “You yella bellied, fucken coward. I’ll teach you never, never, you yellow, yellow, yellow. Lily livered, gutless jumped up fucken piss weak fucken coward,…………….you yellow, yella bellied,………. cunt of a whore”.
He jumped on the bullet-ridden officer. Then continued to stomp on him until he ran out of energy. The Jap was a mangled mess. All his bones were broken, his flesh reduced to pulp.
The blood from Dads bullet hole was dripping down his beard and soaked his shirt. The sight of his own blood caused him to come back to earth. Dad kicked him a few more times. Souvenired the Japs pistol then went to get help for his wound. He eventually found the glorious Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels who stretchered him out.
The 2/12th returned home on 10 March 1943. Dad came back to Tasmania to convalesce at the Calvary Hospital. There he fell in love with all the nurses and suffered the wrath of the matron. The doctors wouldn’t remove the bullet; it was too close to his jugular vein. So there the bullet remained, just under the skin. It stayed in his neck for the rest of his life, sometimes giving him a bit of trouble, especially when he got angry, his neck muscles would tighten and the bullet would stick out. If he got too angry it would press on his jugular vein and restrict the blood to his head. That was enough to calm him down. Then he would have to sit down and gently massage it back to the right spot.
He never spoke of any other deaths. When asked how many of the enemy did he kill. He said, “I did my bit”.
The impression I got from him was, he killed a lot of men. He said, “I was a bloody good shot”. None got to him like that Japanese officer.
Dad not one to hide his bushel under a tree. On the way out of the jungle boasted to anyone who could hear. Word spread like wildfire, reaching the ears of all the boys in Bothwell.
As he lay wounded. Lieutenant Colonel Arthur Sydney Wilfred Arnold came to him with his nose stuck up in the air and a plum in his mouth, and said, “The Army doesn’t like the way you treated the corpse of the Jap. They treat us barbarically but we have to treat the enemy with dignity. It shows we are not like them”.
With that Dad was instantly demoted back to private. Arse Wipe Arnold saluted, turned around and walked out of the room with what looked like a pole shoved up his arse.
Lieutenant Colonel Arnold was recommended for an OBE on the 27th January 1943. Eight days after Dad was shot by the Jap. On the 29th May 1943 it was granted.
When Dad got better he went to sign up for duty and was sent before the top, top brass. He was excited. He knew it was a joke that he was demoted, they were finally going to give him some sort of medal and most of all the promotion, he’d worked hard for, keeping his nose clean and being a good soldier.
The General was instantly at ease with him and offered him a scotch and asked him to sit down.
What came next kept ringing in his ears over and over for the rest of his life. “When you joined the army you took an oath to King and Country. What I am asking you to do is take that oath for the rest of your life”. Dad said, “I will”. The General said, “You can never ever as long as you live breath a word to anyone about what you did”.
The General said “Thank you”, shook Dads hand, saluted him and said, “Good luck”.
Dad walked out of the office scratching his head, thinking, “I deserved a bloody medal, not a bloody demotion and he can shove his scotch up his arse”.
Next stop, pass the fitness test. Dad was fighting fit and ready to take on the world again.
The doctor wouldn’t have a bar of it. He said Dads hands were shaking. Dad said, “They are as steady as a brick”. The doctor said, “You are shell shocked”. Dad said, “I can still shoot bullseyes every time”. The doctor wouldn’t listen. With nothing else to do, he grabbed his kit and went to visit his mates at the Repat Hospital. There he asked everyone did they have any bullets for his pistol. After the visit he went to the nearest pub looking for bullets. Everyone shook their heads and said, “We’ve never seen one like it”.
Dad was officially discharged on the 23rd of March 1945. The 2/12 Battalion went back up without him and with the help of the, Yanks ‘Septic Tanks’, New guinea fell back in the hands of Australia. They then cleaned up Borneo and disbanded in, May, 1945.
He had fought from the first moment he heard about of war, all the way through, having a wild time, the time of his life until he got shot. He was disappointed he didn’t make it to the end unscathed but he was happy and proud, he did his bit.
He was strong before he went to war. He came back stronger. He was a Rat of Tobruk, he fought in New Guinea and that meant something.
All the boys from Bothwell kept the secret. Dads commanding officer had family living in Bothwell. Living in Bothwell were other officers of all ranks. Together they made sure the secret never got out. The boys were too scared to be seen together. Dad would come into town once a month to get supplies. The first thing he did was go around to his cobber, Neville Reynolds place to see if he was alright. After a two second visit Mr. Reynolds came out gave us a quick wave then ducked back inside. Dad quickly got in the car and drove off. Sometimes we saw him sitting on the front step looking sad. As soon as Dad came his face would light up. Besides Mr. Reynolds there was Leo Bannister, Vern Hayden, Lindsey Beard and Roy. These were Dads special cobbers along with others I regretfully have forgotten. Who only ever had the chance to get together on Anzac Day because any other time would have raised suspicion of some sort of collusion. What bothered Dad the most was they didn’t trust him, when he was a man of his word and so were the others.
Dad spoke of Roy. Roy was a good soldier. He was quick as lightning and could climb a tree quick in seconds flat (I imagined Tarzan flying through the jungle).
Dad always told us about stomping on the Jap and once in a moment of drunken clarity he let things slip. He blurted out, “What I did turned the war around”. I asked, “Are you a hero?”. He said, “I’m no hero. All the hero’s are still lying on the battlefield. They died protecting the rest of us. They are the hero’s. We were just plain lucky, not to get our bloody heads blown off”.
I knew he was covering up the heroics of the men that survived. I knew what they had, what it takes to survive. Dad had shown me, through his tenacity and mental strength, many times.
I saw it in the men that walked in the Anzac Day march. They had an inner strength that was as strong as 10 brick walls. They reacted at the speed of lightning. They were aware of their surroundings. They took control of their lives and all the lives around them. They all had a cheekiness that shone through. They all had a twinkle in their eyes that revealed a silent stealth like cunning. All wrapped up in a cocoon of graciousness and humility. They were part of a group that together, could rule the world.
Everywhere Dad went men would come up to him and shake his hand. When he went to the pub there would be free beer all day. Dad beamed with pride, here, today he was respected. Dad sat at the table with his cobbers that knew the truth. People came all day wanting to buy him a beer and thank him for doing his part. They never spoke of the Japs. Nobody dared mention them and if they did you could see the rage forming in them. They would raise their glasses and say, “Those bastard Japs, may they rot in hell”. The subject was quickly changed by someone saying, “Did you know such and such did this or that”. Always something larrikin in nature. Like going behind enemy lines and doing something stupid. Whenever a cobbers name was mentioned, they all raised their glassed and said, “Heres to …….a bloody top bloke”. Everyone was given a history lesson on Rommel or Hitler, although mostly the talk was about the camaraderie formed in Tobruk. If anyone asked Dad what he did in the war. He’d tell them the story of Smokey, The Black-market Man. The more they asked the more he embellished the story.
As the night wore on the alcohol brought out the singing. Everyone would stand around the piano singing old war time songs. By the end of the night Dad had his pockets full of money he had won betting on heads at two-up and his belly was full of free food and grog. He was on top of the world and after getting a few cases of Cascade Green Bitter Ale and a couple of bottles of Beenleigh rum. He would drive home singing all the way. He was proud of himself for what he did. He was a soldier. On duty for the rest of his life.
Dad had everything. He had travelled the world and conquered it and he walked not ten feet tall but twenty feet tall. Ten feet tall and bullet-proof would have been ok for the rest but he wasn’t bullet-proof.
The Jap was Major General Kesaku Oda, Commander of the South Sea Forces.
Yours Sincerely, Donna Mantoura, 3/68 Telopea Ave, Caringbah. NSW 2229.
Dear Jennifer Could you please take my address off
thank you