Jennifer Marohasy

a forum for the discussion of issues concerning the natural environment

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Great friendship despite great difference…

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  2. Neville says

    Luke thinks that more R&D and adaptation is a waste of time. In Luke’s world we’d still be driving T model Fords and flying Tiger moths and living to an average age of 47.
    Of course all the new wonder drugs and very complicated medical instrumentation /procedures that impacts our modern world and saves so many lives wouldn’t exist either.

    Just makes one wonder what sort of a fool we’ve been engaging with over the years on this blog.

  5. handjive says

    FINALLY!

    Photographic Evidence solar energy tackles man made global warming:

    “New solar panels on the Glen Innes Library and Learning Centre, funded by a library grant, are projected to save Glen Innes Severn Council $30,000 a year in power costs.

    The solar installation is expected to reduce the facility’s carbon dioxide emissions by approximately 50 tonnes a year, which is equivalent to that produced by 20 cars or eight average households.”

    http://www.gleninnesexaminer.com.au/story/1600799/solar-to-smash-library-power-bill/?cs=422

    Result:

    BE prepared for a chilly Tuesday with a slight chance of snow fall in parts of the New England region.

    http://www.gleninnesexaminer.com.au/story/1594943/rain-and-snow-as-the-region-rugs-up/?cs=420
    .
    NOTE 1: Weather IS NOW Climate-
    http://www.theage.com.au/national/climate-change-a-key-factor-in-extreme-weather-experts-say-20130303-2fefv.html
    NOTE 2: NASA;Warm Air Creates ICE-
    http://www.agu.org/news/press/pr_archives/2005/prrl0522.html
    .
    You know it makes sense.

  6. el gordo says

    ‘Who could doubt that the Almighty has a sense of humour when, on the very day headlines were filled with warnings that our electricity system is now in such a parlous state that we can soon expect power cuts and electricity “rationing”, we were also told that Britain is now sitting on what has been called “by far the biggest shale gas basin in the world”.

    Christopher Booker / UK Tele

  8. Larry Fields says

    The Concept of the Moral Obligation in Justifying De-Extinction

    by Alicia Crowder at Hubpages

    http://tinyurl.com/nqxe52a

    Larry’s comment: It would be great if we could bring back the Thylacine through genetic engineering (assuming that there are surviving tissue samples to work with). But what about the ethics of the larger issue?

  9. Debbie says

    I really liked it too.
    It’s interesting that it has been facilitated by humans.
    We have had odd couples like that over the years too.
    A sheep and a horse. That one was particularly amusing at shearing time….the horse used to wait outside the shearing shed for her friend.
    A cat and an orphaned lamb.
    And the dogs have been known to make friends with all sorts of different animals….even chooks….but an elephant is really quite amazing.

  11. spangled drongo says

    Larry, interesting philosophy. The funding for de-extinction could go hand-in-hand with funding for climate change.

    But the moral argument has possibly more merit.

    At least if our primary predator, the Thylacine, could be de-extinguished we wouldn’t have to accept the Dingo which is the Pariah dog of Asia, introduced by Asian fishermen ~ 3,000 years ago, which then extinguished the Thylacine on the mainland and has now been heralded by science as our “naturalised” primary native predator so we would be much freer to eliminate it as well as other feral predators such as wild foxes, dogs, cats and pigs.

    We physically can’t protect the dingo yet eliminate the others and our wildlife can’t cope with any of them.

  12. cohenite says

    Hi SD; I have a well meaning but idiot neighbour who planted a gum on the footpath; the thing is 13 years old and already about 20 meters high with a tendency to drop large dead branches; it is also crowding out the bottle-brush in front of my place which attracts the parrots and was a roosting place for Mopokes, my favourite bird.

    I complained to council about the gum and they came around and lopped the bottle-brush.

    Today some of these appeared:

    http://www.ozanimals.com/Bird/Yellow-tailed-Black-Cockatoo/Calyptorhynchus/funereus.html

    And just about finished off the bottle-brush, chewing and stripping the bark while berating anyone who walked underneath.

    Ain’t life grand?

    What do you think Larry’s point is?

  13. Johnathan Wilkes says

    And it came about that a certain tree root invading one’s property (blocking the sewage lines regularly every few months) had a small hole drilled into it, in which hole a small amount of a chemical known to be disagreeable to flora was injected at regular intervals.

    And lo and behold, the affected flora perished.

    Sometimes there is no substitute for direct action when all reasoning is fruitless.

  16. el gordo says

    Archibald gets a lot of flack whenever he shows up at Watts, the sceptics think he’s alarmist, but a 1.5 C drop by 2020 is possible.

    Remember where we are, at the end of the Holocene … the Modern Climate Optimum may have come to an end. Or it might just be a typical climate shift or ‘break’, with a couple more decades of cooling before things pick up again.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greenland_Gisp2_Temperature.svg

  17. Luke says

    Oh wake up El Gordo – it’s non-science rot.

    And go study the orbital alignments – you’re nowhere near a Milankovitch type cooling.

  18. Larry Fields says

    Cohenite asked the following questions:
    “What ethics and what ‘larger issue’ are those Larry?”
    “What do you think Larry’s point is?”

    Alicia’s article is more in the food for thought caregory than in the political action category. In my opinion, preserving and enhancing habitats for endangered species is a higher priority. Why? Because it’s cheaper.

    In principle, we could genetically engineer an artificial zygote from Mammoth tissue that had been frozen and preserved in the Arctic tundra. The fly in the ointment for cloning is the de-differentiation issue. And that’s one thing that makes it so expensive.

    Getting the right epigenetics for the artificial zygote is not trivial, and at the moment, it’s a hit-or-miss affair. If we de-methylate ALL of the genes, the artificial zygote will not survive.

    In the case of the Mammoth, there’s also the question of finding a suitable maternal host. My wild guess is that an elephant would be our best shot.

    I appreciate the Chinese efforts to preserve habitat in order to save the Giant Panda. I only wish that they would show the same compassion for endangered cultures, like that of Tibet.

    I cant remember all of Alicia’s points about the ethics of de-extinction. And it wouldn’t be sporting for me to reread her hub. Here are a few of them.

    On the de-extinction side, there’s the old saw about cleaning up one’s messes. However there are additional questions.

    Our hunter-gatherer ancestors weren’t deliberately trying to wipe out the yummy megafauna; they were simply trying to survive. Alicia asks this question: What if a pride of big cats kills the very last mating pair of zebras? To what extent are they morally responsible?

    Another question is this: How do we know that we evil humans were directly responsible for ALL of the extinctions that happened on our watch? In Australia, there’s some discussion about what did in the Diprotodon. Are we the culprits? Or was it natural climate change?

    What is the big picture here? The first part of the answer is difficult to quantitate. Our fair planet’s biodiversity is a part of who we are. If we cause, or through inaction allow, some plant or animal species to go extinct, then we lose a small part of ourselves.

    Children in developed countries tend to be interested in dinosaurs, even though they’ve never seen one. Paleontology research is the next best thing to Jurassic Park. And it’s a whole lot cheaper.

    Economics is the elephant in the room. Through public health programs, the Smallpox virus was eliminated completely in its natural habitat (human hosts) more than 30 years ago. I do not feel the least bit sorry about that. The smallpox virus has a NEGATIVE economic value. However many endangered plants and animals have positive economic values.

    Pharmaceutical companies are actively screening chemical compounds from plants in Central American rainforests for potential anticarcinogenic activity. Ecotourism in the GBR is good for business, and biodiversity is one of its calling cards.

    As a rational person, I think that we should put pricetags on all endangered species. Then we should look at our governments’ overall biodiversity budgets, and prioritize our efforts. To a certain extent, that’s what we’re doing anyway, even though we don’t call it by that name.

    Voting thumbs down for Smallpox was a no-brainer. I hope that you Aussies can find it in your hearts to do whatever habitat restoration is necessary to save the Northern Hairy Nosed Wombat. But that’s your call, not mine.

  19. spangled drongo says

    cohers,

    The plaintive wails of yellertails
    And bottlebrush in ruins
    The secret tracks of glossy blacks
    In casuarina chewin’s

    Lovely to see ’em.

    Larry asking whether we should recreate the species we extinguished if we have the ability or let bygones be rissoles because the egg is unscrambleable, is incredibly complex and beyond this little black duck.

    Imagine the green tape we could generate with those govt policies!

  20. Ian Thomson says

    Are Bernard, Deb, John and others aware of the new response to the ‘endangerment” of
    Murray Cod ?
    A proposed requirement to kiss and throw back any fish over 80cm.
    Also a catch of one at a time and only 4 in possession.
    BUT , the strange provision to allow catching one from impoundments during the closed breeding season.

    Is the fish strategy working ? No.
    Is there any admission of fault by any authorities ? No
    Will any and all public submissions make one jot of difference to the proposal ? You have to be joking.

    If only the photos of John Lollicato with the dead blackwater cod got the attention in Sydney we are expected to give their nonsense.
    The local CMA are , right now, studying the cray population in the rivers in response to the non-response of any Sydney experts on the subject. All the strategy money falls into a deep hole in Sydney and more has to be spent to find the truth.
    Yes ladders have been built etc, but no-one knows any results. If they do they are State Secrets.

    Want the truth ? It is all driven by political philosophy,with no science at all.

  23. spangled drongo says

    Larry, dealing and moving on with the scrambled egg is probably the best solution if only we kept going forward. For instance our govt has gone to great lengths and expense in the recent past to protect the Bilby from feral predators by fencing refuges and eliminating those internal ferals but in time the good intentions and/or the money dwindles, the fences deteriorate and the refuges become killing fields.

    It seems to me that the coming generations who ever increasingly spend more and more time in the virtual world are not taking enough interest to put continuous pressure on govt to maintain the rage.

    When it comes to real “sustainability”, coming generations, who are more affluent, mobile and connected than ever before, do a lot less for the natural environment than their predecessors.

    They talk more, waste more money, are almost never hands-on and achieve less.

  25. Debbie says

    Probably not SD….as far as I know the FIRB has not ever blocked something like this.
    It will be up to the federal govt and the treasurer to block it.
    Only one port on the Eastern Seaboard will be Australian owned if this goes ahead…Emerald Grain in Melbourne.

  27. Luke says

    “They talk more, waste more money, are almost never hands-on and achieve less.”

    Strange that the standard of living has gone up though and they’re not employed by rural Australia.

    Destruction of species is happening on your watch – what are YOU doing about it?

    “do a lot less for the natural environment than their predecessors.” hahahaha – mate it’s your ferals and your agriculture. Your land clearing. Your soil erosion, Your soil acidity. Your crappy MDB drainage ditch. How about the land managers themselves sort it out.

    More old codger sooking. Sooky sooky sook.

  28. spangled drongo says

    And there I was thinkin you reckoned that SOL was inversely proportional to sustainability.

    Luke, you hypocrite, how many hands-on associations do you belong to and actively participate in that go forth and physically strike a blow for the environment?

  29. Debbie says

    Luke?

    Doesn’t the National Food Plan point out that agriculture (and flow on) is still the largest employer in Australia?
    Most of your negative ranting above is soooooooo last century.
    The land managers could quite easily ‘sort it out’ and have in fact sorted most of it out.
    They are consistently obstructed by excessive green and red tape that returns no benefit. . . just more cost.
    The worst water wastage and the worst land management is not being practiced by the land managers.
    Wanna hazard a guess who/what has earned that title????

  30. FarmerDoug2 says

    “…on your watch – ”
    I have more trees, wallabies, wombats… than my fathers did. My agricultural budget struggles to be positive at all. My neighbors are disappearing at a fast rate. I am blaming my environmental costs and would like to know;
    How many marsupials is my share, and
    Who is going to pay the agistment on the rest.

    I seem to be doing YOUR share.

    Doug

  31. Debbie says

    Good for you FarmerDoug,
    🙂
    I have asked you this question before Luke….and you didn’t answer it…but since you have decided to say what you have said above…..
    Where in the world are there better water management practices and land management practices than Australia?
    Where in the world are farmers (aka land managers) more efficient and less subsidised than Australia?
    And as an addendum from Doug’s comment….who seems to being doing the lion’s share re environmental/water/land management innovations in Australia??????

  32. Luke says

    Well you haven’t sorted it out have you Debs – a veritable black hole for assistance measures and the source of major pretty well all environmental damage to 95% of the land area.

    Subsidies – Hah ongoing billions over decades. Come on.

    Let’s do the havoc list:

    Soil erosion
    Soil salinity
    Soil acidification
    Land clearing
    Species extinctions
    Changed fire regimes
    Exploding woody weeds
    Exploding macropods from unregulated watering points
    Squandered groundwater pressure
    Source of 90% feral plants and animals
    Changed flow regimes, carp and cold water pollution

    And this is my fault?

    “Where in the world are there better water management practices and land management practices than Australia?” Israel, USA

  33. spangled drongo says

    Doug and Debbie,

    +1 [each]

    “Destruction of species is happening on your watch – what are YOU doing about it?”

    We reverted our orchard back to rainforest and habitat for pademelons and other natives and the balance of the old dairy farm is revegetated wet sclerophyll forest where we are also trying to build native habitat. A recent Lyrebird survey shows increasing numbers there. We could have subdivided it but chose not to and now probably wouldn’t be allowed to. Because we have foolishly allowed such prolific tree growth we would not now be allowed to clear it so we have made a sizeable contribution to the environment at considerable expense.

    We don’t even get carbon credits for the vegetation☺.

    Being the total land between two NPs with views for 200 klms from Moreton Is to Mt Warning it would have value as a subdivision but is instead “just” a well used wildlife corridor.

    How about you?

  35. Debbie says

    Luke? ? ?
    to use your own phraseology. . .
    z z z z z z z 🙂
    Welcome to the 21st century.
    If you’re not prepared to answer my questions. . . I have no time for you.
    I do not argue that Aussie agriculture is perfect. . . it isn’t.
    But where is it better?
    I have toured Israel and the USA. . . Provide your evidence.
    Just saying so is not an answer. . . PROVE IT!

  36. Debbie says

    SD,
    🙂
    hubby and I have planted over 200,000 native trees. . . WITH ZERO (REPEAT ZERO) GOVT ASSISSTANCE.
    We also now grow more crop with less water.
    Once again with ZERO (REPEAT ZERO) govt assisstance.

  37. Debbie says

    PS. . . SD
    🙂
    Why would we want carbon credits?
    And PS Luke?
    Did you bother to look at the link I posted @ 10:33?

  38. sp says

    Yes Luke – humans, especially farmers, are the enemies of the planet, bloody humans eating food and exhaling CO2, and farmers!!! fancy them clearing land to feed humans ……….. zzzzzzzzzzzzz

  39. spangled drongo says

    That’s a lot of trees Deb. We planted quite a few but not that many on our place. Lucky for us the majority of trees regenerate well.

    The local Sydney Bluegums, E. saligna, grow so well I say that if you want a Jackson Pollock experience simply go down to where they are regenerating.

    You can’t see the forest for the blue poles! ☺

    But seriously, there are many farmers that do a great job environmentally.

    Ningos like our lovely boy are simply pushing their agenda 21.

  40. Neville says

    The Age must be the most moronic and imbecillic rag in OZ. Just read today’s editorial and you soon understand what clueless fools these people really are.

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/editorial/australia-needs-to-push-ahead-on-climate-change-20130630-2p5cu.html#ixzz2Xmk0lcry

    But then again perhaps these people are just blatant liars and mad religious fundamentalists, who knows?
    What an embarrassment to OZ, facts and the truth mean nothing to these twits.

  41. cohenite says

    Thank you Larry; I thought you were referring to the Frankenstein principle as the ‘ethical’ issue; that is, should man presume to be God.

    SD, I’m not sure if I’ve put up Savory’s talk but given luke’s explicable outburst about ferrals and agriculture it should be linked to again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

    And don’t forget that Leon Ashby’s farming practices, which I have linked to before, area dapted from Savory’s methods.

  42. John Sayers says

    I don’t know how the modern farmer today copes – every move they make is now observed by satellite and judged by some public servant who has never been on a farm except for a rock concert.

    Most of Luke’s list used to be the responsibility of the farmer but now it’s out of their hands – if they clear woody weeds they are fined! Most feral plants come from city gardeners and we no longer employ feral animal control measures, the worst these days being wild dogs let go by city folk wanting to get rid of an unwanted pet.

    species extinction?? what extinctions Luke? It’s a term you greenies hand out like candy yet there is NO evidence of species extinction on the Australian continent. The last extinction was a Pig-footed bandicoot back in the 50s and 4 frogs in Queensland. Most extinctions occur on islands like Norfolk island because of introduced cats and foxes.

  43. spangled drongo says

    cohers, that Alan Savory link is brilliant and should be part of everyone’s school curriculum.

    I have been collecting the locals’ rainfalls lately and comparing the results with where the gauges are positioned WRT vegetation. When it doesn’t rain, the dewfall near heavy vegetation, particularly rainforest, is impressive.

    Nothing new, but reinforces his message.

  44. Neville says

    Just been looking at the Salby video again and trying to understand the co2 source info from about 38 minutes on.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2ROw_cDKwc0#t=2312s

    If Salby is correct then as he says all bets are off. All the models show co2 and temp locked together but this is not the case in the real world.

    But why haven’t we been told about the satellite observed natural sources of co2 in the amazon basin, Se Asia and equatorial Africa?
    No human industrialisation or factories in those areas.

  45. FarmerDoug2 says

    “…havoc test.”
    A definition is required here.
    When is less native veg and more food havoc?

    I will agree that some things my fathers, and I, did in the past weren’t good but farmers are learning and making less mistakes. Your “havoc” is reducing.

    A look at your list;
    Soil erosion is reducing. Like mining (and spilt beer) a little looks bad. The worst, nutrient loss and topsoil, doesn’t make news but it’s our livelihood so farmers are doing our best to prevent it.

    Salinity never was a problem here and I suspect it wasn’t, isn’t, all that big. (Deb?)

    Acidification is a problem and we are working on it. Havoc? Not yet. Your help would be welcome but, assuming your a Govt agent, suspect.

    Clearing ? I’m not in jail so I mustn’t be doing much. Again a definition is needed. I’m in NSW (SE New England) so the Veg Act applies and anything I do is “broardscale”.

    Species loss: Nup Couple of doors up the road, who isn’t going broke, maybe but not here.

    Fire regime: Out of my control. and yes I would like it to be different.

    Exploding woody weeds: Again , out of my control and again I wlitbd.

    Exploding macropods from unregulated watering points: Can you offer any advice (legal) here?

    Squandered groundwater pressure: na (squandered or used?)

    Source of 90% feral plants and animals: I’m going to plead innocent.

    Changed flow regimes, carp and cold water pollution: Again out of my control and again Iwlitbd.

    And this is my (your) fault?: I never said it was but you are backing some of those who’s fault it is. We are trying to fix it. If you can’t help get out of the way.

    Doug

  46. FarmerDoug2 says

    John Sayers. Your comment(?) at 10.38 raises some thought.

    Fortunately some of the “public servants” aren’t so bad. Also, the gubmint (NSW anyway) can’t afford to watch so if we can keep our head down they don’t look.
    Unfortunately the threat is there and it brings in more uncertainty. Keeping our head down means very restricted (inefficient) operations.

    It’s gotten to where I can’t afford to tell Luke’s mates if there is a Koala. I would rather not be responsible for a species extinction but I’m told 9?% of species that have been on earth are now extinct. Get over it.

    Doug

  47. spangled drongo says

    Doug, you forgot to point out that it was the govt that originally mandated that Luke’s points be carried out [directly or indirectly] or you lost your land. Later on with soldier-settlement we were subsidised to do it.

  48. Debbie says

    ….”when is less native veg and more food havoc?”
    EXCELLENT QUESTION!!!! and…..
    “And this is my (your) fault?: I never said it was but you are backing some of those who’s fault it is. We are trying to fix it. If you can’t help get out of the way.”
    WELL SAID!!!!!
    I am still waiting for the evidence that Israel and the USA have better land management and water management practices than Australia.
    Also wondering where in the world farmers are more efficient and less subsidised?

  49. Debbie says

    Yes SD….
    My husband’s grandfather had land and water entitlement confiscated by the gummint because he refused to clear a low lying area of box trees.
    His father recently told the new lot to go away because they now want to join up this remnant vegetation, right through the middle of our properties WITH NO FIRE BREAKS.
    🙂
    He basically told them that his family were punished for saving it so he isn’t now going to let them burn it down….mind you….he wasn’t that polite about it.

  50. Luke says

    John Sayers – northern Australian small mammals are under massive attack from the perfect storm of fire, cats and toads.

    When you say “we are trying to fix it” – hmmmm yes with vast amounts of Federal funds you are !

    Water efficiency kings – Israel. Source of ag technology and ag machinery – USA and Israel.

  52. Debbie says

    Luke???
    Have you been to USA and Israel?
    Have you any research on hand that proves that their farmers are better managers and have been less subsidised??????
    We actually use the technology you are referring to in Australia…so how does that make them better?
    You are forever going on and on about subsidies to rural and regional Australia.
    I suspect that you do not understand why Govts WORLDWIDE subsidise agriculture and the support regional communities.
    I also suspect that you can’t grasp the fact that Agriculture has provided far, far more in terms of revenue/employment/lifestyle to Australia than any subsidies that have been provided.
    Go and do the maths Luke.
    I also suggest you could read the research that was used to put together the recent National Food Plan.
    You do realise don’t you that farmers in Israel and USA are far, far more heavily subsidised than their Aussie counterparts?
    Much of the irrigation work in Israel is done for border protection purposes…and therefore very, very heavily subsidised….albeit technically savvy.
    Australians would not pay for that and have no need to do so.
    Also…on another popular topic at this site…. just spotted this little gem:
    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/study-fires-extinction-debate-20130701-2p68i.html

  53. Ian Thomson says

    Much talk of extinctions and recreating species.
    Just how extinct is the thylacine ?
    Not 50,000 years extinct on the mainland certainly. The carcase found down the limestone cave in SA 30 odd years ago may , or may not be, ancient. Certainly not 50,000 years ancient.
    The Wollemi Pine cannot hide at the sound of threatening footsteps, cannot slink into the shadows at daybreak and sat there in full view. Waiting for a young bloke to virtually fall on it in 1994 .
    His statement is that if that was there ,unknown, 150kms from the centre of Sydney , what else is ?

    The extinct Plains Wanderer here lived in open country . Oh yes, locals thought they had seen them, but what would they know ? Some of those scrubby buggers had seen Min Min lights there too. He he he… well, I ask you ?
    Be that as it may, the bird was extinct until the mid 1980’s.
    The Night Parrot is not extinct.- Because a couple of dead ones have been found. However anyone who has spent a night out in the Australian Outback on a moonless night would not count out the possibility of 10 varieties of the things. And other mysteries chasing them.

    However. Cats and wild dogs are waging a war out there on native species. Worst is , nothing will be done about this.
    Eucalypts are waging a war of their own , on everything else. Something is being done about this, Greenies are helping them to win.

    Larry, I think when it comes to it, it will not be moral, economic , or maybe really scientific choices which decide an attempt to revive a species. It will likely be the whim of some billionaire with a dream. And good luck to him ? How do we really know what he will bring back ?

  56. John Sayers says

    Luke – I’ve told you before that the fires in the top end are caused by the local Aboriginals who go out and light fires with diesel guns on purpose. Why? because we have told them they know how to look after the land so do whatever you think needs to be done. They love fires, it cleans the land. Duh!

    Problem is today’s Aboriginals are so far removed from their original culture they have no idea of what is right. Most of the elders are ex-stockmen who used to burn to create extra feed for the cattle in winter. At this very moment the top end is on fire, day in day out!. There’s probably more wildlife in SD’s backyard than in 50 sq km of the northern territory.

    Didn’t someone discover the cane toads achilles heal recently, it’s own poison? When put into a pond all the cane toad tadpoles are attracted to it and the other tadpoles repelled.

    Cats have been in Australia for some time Luke – in the 1700s ships would drop off rabbits onto islands for future food supplies, later they added cats to keep the rabbits under control. The cat probably arrived in the top end during that period either from European explorers or from Indonesian fishermen. The predators that kept them under control was the dingo and the wedge tailed eagle and we’ve been shooting both cos they eat our sheep and cattle, especially our lambs.

    Not much farmers can do about that.

  57. Luke says

    As usual the problems seem intractable and we won’t know what he really had until it’s gone. But it’s now on our watch. If the AEF has any claim in serious environmental credentials (which is highly dubious) it would be on this non-sexy out-of-sight out-of-mind issue. Fire + cats + toads !

    John Sayers – this is an increasing new event over massive areas – not SD’s private zoo and herbarium.

    http://www.uq.edu.au/news/?article=26379

    http://ecnt.org/campaigns/save-our-mammals

    http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/journal/northern-australian-mammals-under-serious-extinction-threat.htm

    http://www.australianwildlife.org/images/file/WILD322361_Wildlife%20Matters_Summer%202012_13%20SP.pdf

    Spangled would probably condemn our iPhone-ridden latte-supping lifestyle for having such concerns.

  58. Luke says

    Debbie as you sit behind the agrarian socialist dream where billions are poured ongoing into land care, catchment authorities, drought aid and cosseted in the comfort of single desk marketing one wonders. But we’re with you every day. I’m with you Debs. BTW Israeli water use efficiency is legendary and we so love those green and red tractors don’t we.

  59. Luke says

    This is simply hilarious – http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/swedish-scientist-replicates-dr-murry.html

    Where’s the friggin paper then – so Salby has this game changing information – he’s a well established researcher – and where’s the paper. It’s been long enough – put the paper or sod orf !

    Fascinating that Neville is so concerned about the science that he spends his life wandering Hungarian journal of chook farming sites and disinformation bogholes – never a mention of anything from mainstream science. All corrupt I suppose – free range – no content disinformation blogs and Youtubes are easier.

  60. John Sayers says

    Luke – those links only confirm what I’ve been saying – yes, the cats have been there for 100 years, yes the fires are burning out the small animals habitat and the dingoes are the cat’s only predator.

    I remember seeing an old doco with David Attenborough in the top end. He was explaining how the plants have become dependent on fire for propagation. He said “when the fires come through this area every 20 years or so….”

    Until we stop the burning the top end will never establish itself again. The poor trees struggle to get to maybe 2m tall then the fall down weakened by constant burning and having to replace their foliage every year. I’ve seen the same trees in an area that wasn’t burnt, the station’s camping ground next to the Fitzroy river, and the trees were 6m tall, the grass was thick and covered in seed and the wildlife was flourishing. You could hear the roos thumping in the night, there were birds and goannas etc. Chalk and Cheese.

  61. Neville says

    Geeezzzz Luke you’re a riot in your own space.We know all about those peer reviewed studies like the Gergis and Karoly 5 minute OZ hockey stick idiocy and Briffa’s infamous superstick corrupt con.

    I mean we really need more of those quality???? studies don’t we? Not to forget Mann’s original HS BS that the fraudsters at the IPCC and Gore plastered everywhere.

    I may be wrong but I understand Salby has at least one PR paper that has passed and will be released soon.

    But tell us do you accept that the highest natural sources of land based co2 emission sites are in remote natural areas and not over heavy industrial centres?

  64. Luke says

    Pity you don’t read anything useful Neville – really who has the time chase down all the background to the lies and rat dirt in the disinformation fraud blogs. But then again you are a non-scientist content to fill your mind fill of shock-jock blog trash. Most of it is pure garbage – they’re just feeding your old white male anger needs. Gish gallop is a known disinformation technique – one just ignores it.

  65. Luke says

    And Neville I’ll agree with you “Bob is just the messenger, he doesn’t supply the data and REAL observations.”

    After his stats confession – lets just say we’ll leave it there. I guess a few harmless eccentrics having a Walter Mitty moment won’t hurt. He probably means well.

  66. spangled drongo says

    “Spangled would probably condemn our iPhone-ridden latte-supping lifestyle for having such concerns.”

    Good to see you have concerns Luke but if it’s only enough to criticise others and not do anything yourself, those concerns don’t count for much.

    In more prosperous times when those big western properties were maintained properly with predator proof fencing, our natives fared a lot better. Now that the solution falls more on govts, less will happen.

    We are “lucky” with cats here because scrub ticks kill ’em fairly quickly. If anyone gets a tick I ask them to treat it gently and put it back where they got it. They are a great asset. The natives are the hosts for the scrub ticks but that doesn’t work in the dry country. If only someone could breed a scrub tick, Ixodes holocyclus, for dry country.

    1080 baiting, sodium fluoroacetate, which is very target specific, works well on the other ferals but not the cat. Cats are hard to kill and are really not endangered by dogs or dingoes if there is any cover or trees around. If a cat stands its ground there are not too many canines that will tackle it unless in a pack.

    Most of the time cats and foxes play dogs and dingoes off a break.

  67. sp says

    Funny how Luke never answers questions – only spews rat-dirt time after time – and the poor boy thinks he is “contributing” and saving the planet – but it seems its his “watch” – such a bulging ego.

  68. Luke says

    And what does your boutique herbarium count Spangles – especially after you’re gone?

    “big western properties were maintained properly with predator proof fencing” Weally? that’s good one.

    So Spangles do you think http://birdlife.org.au/ , http://www.bushheritage.org.au/ and http://www.australianwildlife.org/ are misguided?

    Artesian Range – is a last stand ! http://www.australianwildlife.org/Artesian-Range.aspx

    Well sp – it’s a question of where you’ve put your money isn’t it? We know your position – a non-content non-contributing ragger. Try making a point about something.

    Strange that AEF doesn’t care about these issues isn’t it?

  69. Debbie says

    Boring and irrelevant Luke,
    Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.
    Yes the techniques in Israel are legendary. . . and we use much of it in Australia. . . and yes we love the green and red tractors (among others). . . used in Australia too.
    SO?????
    There is something wrong with your maths though.
    USA & Israel have. . . to use your phraseology. . . poured many more billions. . . than here. Good lord! Sometimes people are paid to NOT produce!
    Agriculture provides a POSITIVE return in Australia Luke. . . and did so even during the drought.
    Australian Agriculture is WORLD RENOWNED for innovation and responsible practices.
    BUT. . . as Dave (and I) have said. . . it is not perfect. . . mistakes have been made.
    The questions you have studiously avoided by quoting last century, crappy, rhetoric are:
    Where in the world are farmers more efficient/responsible and less subsidised?
    And while you’re at it Luke. . . what is your objection to vesting in NSW? ie. . RMB single desk export licence?

  70. spangled drongo says

    “And what does your boutique herbarium count Spangles – especially after you’re gone?”

    Well, if you call ~ a hundred thousand acres of plants and wildlife a “boutique herbarium”.

    That just happens to be the escarpment around here which I try to whip the local councillors, members, environment ministers etc into digital extraction and performance application. Not always successful I’ll admit and I have many head bruises but I can but try.

    I’m currently trying to establish a 1080 baiting program over this area which is becoming more logistically impossible year by year with the “experts” now telling me it can’t happen. I find environmental orgs are not much help.

    Maybe you could give me a hand?

    And BTW, it’s not the herbs so much that I’m interested in as the herbivores.

    We have an endless flora bank and the “boutique herbarium” may be around forever but the fauna wont last long.

  71. Luke says

    Nice try at a diversion Debs – so Aussie ag is quite production efficient but at a price. So given our climate and soils – how long will the productive resource last – well depends where you are doesn’t it and what you’re doing. Your level rice paddy may be OK. Aussie soil formation is low ….

    I see you want to stifle competition with your single desk system that all are happy with (ho ho).

    World renowned for innovation – hmmmm most of the new tech is imported. Red and greens ones.

    Spangled – so what’s neat in your private zoo. Whatcha got?

  72. Luke says

    Does escarpment = couldn’t use it for anything else and we logged it out years ago?

  73. spangled drongo says

    “big western properties were maintained properly with predator proof fencing” Weally? that’s good one.

    Would you have a clue, Luke?

    Million acre properties that were in some of the most productive country are today in ruins.

    A place I worked on in the ’50s had netting awa electric fences [before solar panels] to keep out feral pest animals [as did the neighbours]. It employed a great team of people and is owned by the same family but no-one even lives there anymore. The beautiful homestead is in ruins.

    The helicopters arrive once a year to muster whatever they can get and put them on trucks via portable steel yards and loading ramps but most of the cattle just hide in the thick mulga with the camels and donkeys and there’s nothing they can do about it. Cunning scrubbers. But it is uneconomic to muster them properly whereas once we did not only that but “moonlighted” the scrubbers and made a fortune.

    Just check out some of the biggest and best, smartarse!

  74. spangled drongo says

    “Does escarpment = couldn’t use it for anything else and we logged it out years ago?”

    As usual you wouldn’t know Lukie but parts of Tamborine NP which is the oldest in Qld [1908] is in an area that has been selectively logged [particularly for red cedar] since the 1840s so all the Qld NPs have been logged to some extent however you wouldn’t guess it unless you were lucky enough to find the stumps with the springboard marks. It’s all rich basalt lyrebird country [if you know what that means]. 65 breeding pairs at today’s count.

    Even the best of the basalt on the Sunshine Coast Hinterland doesn’t have Lyrebirds.

    The chicks spend the first 6 months of their lives on the ground, very vulnerable to foxes, cats, dogs, dingoes etc and they are just one of the magnificents that I am trying to protect.

  75. el gordo says

    ‘….really who has the time chase down all the background to the lies and rat dirt in the disinformation fraud blogs.’

    Luke you could do me a big favour by coming to this thread and abuse me, just like you do here. Its a satirical sort of blog and I’m pushing my global cooling meme, but I need conflict and drama to get the editor’s attention.

    http://thedailytrash.wordpress.com/co2-and-you-ii/

  76. Debbie says

    What sort of answer is this?….
    I see you want to stifle competition with your single desk system that all are happy with (ho ho).

    I didn’t ask you what you think, I think I want…. (or whatever)
    What’s YOUR actual objection that has continually drawn sneers from you?
    Competition?
    What competition?
    There is nothing stifling competition re single desk in domestic rice markets….and hasn’t been for a while….you are free to buy your Pakistani basmati or whatever else you choose.
    Vesting is related to exporting and is a NSW state single desk licence that is regulated by the State govt appointed Rice Marketing Board (RMB)
    I am wondering why that attracts criticism from you? If you want to export Aussie rice from another state….there is nothing stopping you.
    I thought you would have been philosophically impressed by an industry that is ‘paddock to plate’ and self regulated and grower owned?
    You do understand don’t you that rice is just one of the successful, value add enterprises in this part of the world?

    And …..
    so Aussie ag is quite production efficient but at a price. So given our climate and soils – how long will the productive resource last –

    Doesn’t that depend on our continual journey to improve practices? Most of the old problems were actually caused by over clearing…which several of us have pointed out above was NOT caused by the actual farmers….most of them wouldn’t have cleared like that and most of them have spent the last 1/2 century replanting and regenerating….usually at their own expense.
    The latest problems are being caused largely by ‘over compensation’ by the same usual suspects using the same legislative measures….and likely headed for disasters….such as woody weeds, rampant/uncontrolled feral pests and raging, destructive bush fires and wasting water out to sea.

    And here….
    World renowned for innovation – hmmmm most of the new tech is imported. Red and greens ones.

    The ag innovations in Australia do indeed use some imported technology….but…. they are just machines Luke….that’s not where the real magic lies….that’s not why Aussie Ag practices are world renowned….also….there are plenty of clever tecchie Ag inventions being used world wide that are exported FROM Australia.

    Also….you still haven’t managed to understand the maths….most of what has been done in Australia has been done on FAR LESS subsidy than other nations….so your continual attempts to claim that Ag has cost Australia BILLIONS is complete rubbish….do the maths Luke….compared to what or whom?
    Who has done it better than Australia?
    Ag returns as POSITIVE on the national balance sheet Luke…..POSITIVE….get it??????
    I once again suggest you read the research that goes with the recent National Food Plan….it clearly indicates that a lot of what you are implying here is at best out-dated but often not correct.

  77. John Sayers says

    Well said Deb.

    Having spent a few hours wandering around the Carrefour supermarket here in Dubai I was disappointed in the lack of Australian produce on the shelves. The supermarket carefully labels the country of origin for every item.

    The beef comes from Australia, and Argentina but the Lamb is New Zealand. Locals tell me our lamb is stronger flavoured than the NZ lamb, something I’d never heard of before. Must be the diet as they are the same breeds. There’s veal from India, pork from Kenya and pork from the UK _ very different costs with the UK higher.

    It was in the fruit and veg department I found practically no aussie produce, NZ was represented, apples, as were Lebanon, Turkey, India and a few african states. Clearly our distance is a large handicap for food exports. There are also vegetable items from the UAE, no doubt grown with desalinated fresh water!!

    Now that Emirates and Qantas fly A380s twice a day out of Sydney and Melbourne to Dubai you’d think that some of the fresh fruit and veg could make here. There is a lot of fruit/veg from the US which is just as far away and most of the bacon is from the US.

  78. Luke says

    Spangled – well so excellent – you could of course discuss such things – I’m very interested. And it’s a positive story among the ongoing negativity here. Although if you’re wishing to protect your investment’s location from marauders and hunting twits I can understand. But would be extremely interested to hear what you’ve done and the biological response – whatever you’re prepared to share.

    However you haven’t answered me on your opinion on investment with the organisations listed above. Are they going to use my money appropriately? In your opinion as a practitioner.

  79. Luke says

    Well El Gordo – Neville yelling fraud and criminal offends me.

    Debs – well given you haven’t paid for the headworks engineering and rehabilitation investments – of course it’s profitable – to you !

    And why do you insist on a single desk – are you communists?

    But Debs be assured I’m looking after your interests as best one can every day. We love you and we believe in you. Seriously. But families can bring up all sorts of unpalatable topics. It needs to be said.

    Now look at the topics we’ve covered in the last few days? Did you enjoy it? Don’t tell me you didn’t have fun? And Neville has been pounding me non-stop too.

    The only thing that really stretches my friend ship with Jen is the whaling and sports hunting. Really gets my dander up. And she knows it.

  80. spangled drongo says

    Those conservation orgs naturally try to do the right thing but the rotating managers who only visit the properties for short periods are almost always very remote from the problems most of the time. Usually city-dwellers with other lives to lead and on-going caretaking is often very disjointed whereas farmers who live on the properties are confronting the problems daily and dealing with them progressively.

    I am familiar with some of those properties they have taken over and only time will tell if the effort is maintained. They often give the impression of slipping into disrepair but that is not necessarily bad for the wildlife but it can be and reflects on the funding and/or the motivation and commitment.

  83. Debbie says

    Are you communists?
    Huh?
    That was totally out of left field. Maybe you didn’t/don’t understand how the rice industry in NSW works? It has nothing to do with communism. . . that’s for sure.
    What makes you think I haven’t paid my share of the headworks, engineering and rehabilitation investments along with my share of all other infrastructure investment like roads/power/health/educatiin/telecommunications etc?
    The nation has profited Luke. . . the nation.
    We make a living along with everyone else. . . despite your strange idea that we get special treatment or that we’re some type of economic drain that you’re somehow propping up.
    Yes John. . . the kiwis have done an awesome job of marketing their lamb. . . It is also the top seller in Great Britain even though there is nothing wrong with their own lamb.
    Country of origin labeling would definitely help local Aussie producers.

  84. Neville says

    Thanks for that link on the unhinged Hansen nutter El Gordo. Boy what a prize fool.

    There’s also a good post on Obama’s idiotic response to so called CAGW.

    http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/climate-change-white-house-confuses.html

    You’d think they’d have had enough brains to look at the EU madness over the last couple of decades to easily understand the stupidity of their response.

    Clearly Obama’s not the sharpest tool in the shed, but why do his advisors have to be barking mad as well?
    Must be a requirement as part of their job application?

  85. Neville says

    Seems like Labor has a requirement that all candidates must be lying,stupid loonies
    before they can stand for the party.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/rudd_gives_fake_excuses_for_his_boat_people_disaster/#commentsmore

    How can they stuff up so badly and then still keep lying to the OZ voters about it? Howard fixed our borders years before and then these idiots wreck our borders, encourage people smugglers and this leads to a blowout of at least 5 bn $ and the loss of 1000+ lives.

  89. Luke says

    unhinged nutter idiotic barking mad liar fraudster totalitarians neo Nazis

    Rabies – vaccine Alzheimers

  90. Neville says

    Gosh how did I forget, Gleick is a thief as well. Sorry Lukey, zero dementia so far and I don’t fall for silly ponzi schemes either.

  93. Debbie says

    Good luck with that Luke 🙂
    You could be the very first to be force fed the innoculant. . . you did actually ask me if I was a comminust a few comments back 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
    LOL!

  95. Ian Thomson says

    Well, you guys can think what you like. I watched Catalyst last night.
    We desperately need even more carbon taxes and even that will be too late. If you had seen the pretty girl and her fancy animations AND all the footage of floods and droughts, you would now know too that we are all doomed.
    Isn’t it fortuitous that it was shown just in time for Kev to discuss the carbon tax ?
    And at the inception of the latest increment ?
    Thank you my ABC. You are a shining light in a dark stormy maelstrom.

    Hi Luke .
    Just a little question about your sometimes obvious prejudices .
    While you were sweating nerdishly and nervously in front of your computer at uni and shivering in panic about the coming cataclysm . Some cockie’s son didn’t race your girlfriend off did they ?
    Might be time to get out among them, some of them are quite “normal” you know.

  96. el gordo says

    ‘I tend to shy away from long-term predictions, because there are still so many uncertainties. When pressed, though, I tend to say that I think cooling in our future is just as real a possibility as warming. Of course, a third possibility is relatively steady temperatures, without significant long-term warming or cooling.’

    Roy Spencer

  97. Ian Thomson says

    Hi el gordo,
    Like the Irish weather stand-
    “If nut is wet it is rainy,
    If nut is dry it is fine
    If nut is swinging it is windy
    If nut is gone it is a gale”
    Could be another one-
    “If nut works for NASA,or CSIRO, they working on the computer model”

  100. Debbie says

    🙂 🙂 🙂
    LOL!
    Ian Thomson,
    I wish there was a like button.
    Good advice for Luke. I’m sure he thinks we’re all old white males who drink tea at tea paries, have red necks, flap around on one wing, indiscriminately and deliberately destroy the environment, members of an elite squatocracy. . . etc

  102. Debbie says

    Very good Luke…..
    I liked this comment at that story….

    Call for a national agriculture vision? Didn’t the industry just go through the process of developing a National Blueprint for Agriculture? And we now also have the Australia in the Asian Century plan and the National Food Plan. Stop consulting and get on with it.

    Or as Doug said earlier…. 🙂
    If you want to help….get out of the way

  104. el gordo says

    ‘Mr Taylor said there was also a critical need for government to invest in rail.’

    Strongly Agree …. very fast rail funded by bonds… then we can grow the country.

  106. el gordo says

    ‘Professor Jennifer Francis , from the Institute of Marine and Coastal Sciences, Rutgers University, explained that the rapidly warming Arctic has created a ‘gentler’ atmospheric temperature gradient between the Tropics and the Poles. This leads to weaker, more variable, jet stream winds, which then ‘meander’ north and south more.

    ‘This allows frigid polar air to penetrate further towards the tropics, and hot tropical air to penetrate further towards the poles. Also, because the wavy jet stream is moving more slowly, this causes weather systems to persist for longer.’

    Ken Stewart via Nova

  107. Luke says

    Well Debs – if you notice it’s not “us” – it’s your Graincorp Chairman.

    First agenda item is to get rid of communist restrictive practices like single desk marketing. Has to go !

    And chuck the the culture of entitlement – so no more drought aid !

    Also time to internalise the externalities of your activities – you can pay for them not me. Reef and MDB impacts – let those causing the problem pay for the rehabilitation.

    Indeed time to get on with it Debs and grow up. I mean you guys are climate geniuses – so you now need no help. Just ask Bob what to do for any advice – he’s got you covered with Plan B !

  108. Neville says

    More on the useless climate models from Bob Tisdale. This post covers Greenland and Iceland.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/06/models-fail-greenland-and-iceland-land-surface-air-temperature-anomalies/#more-89439

    Again let me remind silly dummies,this is not Bob’s data used to generate the graphs and even Gavin Schmidt from RC prefers this selection to more properly check the trend.

    Amazing how one man with no money and just a laptop can give everyone factual info that the world’s MSM covers up. What a con.

  110. Luke says

    That would be the unpublished self confessed stats deficient Bob would it? Perhaps Maccer needs to audit him?

    It’s amazing how someone untrained with no money and a laptop can make such a hash of it?

  111. el gordo says

    ‘….he’s got you covered with Plan B !’

    Yep, Bob can’t lose with Plan B.

    Carter for CC Commissioner!

  112. Luke says

    ummm and what was Plan B – is that written up anywhere.

    This elegantly sums it up

    “Worse still, the post-truth state of the political right, in Australia and the US, makes it hard for anyone on that side of politics to discern the truth even if they want to. Once you assume (correctly) that anything said by Bolt, the IPA, the Oz, Fox and so on is probably false, where can a conservative go for information. ”

    What an excellent comment – http://johnquiggin.com/2013/07/02/fact-checking-tony-abbott/

  113. Debbie says

    Luke @ 3.26
    If I thought you actually knew what you were actually commenting on. . . other than parroting last century rhetoric. . . I might bother to continue the discussion.
    Your comments look to be empty blathering at the moment.

  114. Neville says

    Lukey are you really that stupid or do you work on it? Most people compare the info from both right and left and make a judgement based on the facts.

    That’s why I read Bolt etc and then use commonsense and my BS meter the same as I do for all other journos that I bother reading.

    He’s been correct on that many issues over the years that I always take note of his views and file it away to wait for future reference. He’s rarely wrong and is usually first to pick a trend.

    Your side has generally been clueless on CAGW and are a standing joke among the better non pseudoscience blogs.

    Let’s just list a few of the lies and nonsense parroted about by the promoters of this giant super ponzi scheme called CAGW. Yes your side are the catastrophists, whether you like it or not.

    Firstly the models have hopelessly failed, just check out Spencer and Christy’s post.
    SLR is basically the same as the last 100 years. Your liars and fraudsters promote metres a century or 10s of metres a century or even 100 metres is possible?????

    Mitigation of CAGW is a total fraud and con just check out the co2 emission numbers projected for the non OECD until 2035. Then check the near flatlining OECD.
    Then check out extreme weather events, zip evidence again that we have unusual or unprecedented weather at all. Even the IPCC agrees with this finding.

    Of course there has been no SS warming for the last 16 years. UAH hasn’t warmed at SS for 19 years and RSS for 23 years.

    Every con in the book has been tried with all the hockey stick graphs over many years. McIntyre
    has been proven correct and these ridiculous selections have now been dropped from the dendro studies. These twits even managed to use some data upside down.
    The angry summer for OZ shows up as normal in the UAH database.

    But the biggest con and fraud is the garbage that we can mitigate CAGW by reducing our emissions in the OECD.
    Simple maths proves we can’t make a scrap of difference to temp or climate by 2100 or for any foreseeable time in the future. And backed up by the ice core data as well.

    Gotta go my power is to be turned off.

  115. el gordo says

    I see your Quiggin and raise you Paul Collits in Quadrant…..

    ‘The age of global warming is over. I refer, not to any warming of the planet that may or may not be occurring, but to the world’s apparently serious and broadly shared belief in dangerous, man-made global warming and of equally serious attempts to implement policies of enforced decarbonisation to deal with it.

    ‘Of course, the denouement will take time. There are too many vested interests involved for it all to simply die overnight. The architecture built by the warmists is quite grand, literally in the case of the ghastly and divisive wind farms. The architecture is both global and local. Think of all those grant recipients whose careers have been built on global warming, all those folks who work in Centres of Sustainability and the like. They won’t give up without a fight. But, in my view, their party is over.’

  116. spangled drongo says

    eg, and I also love the ABC quiz by James Allan:

    5. The Australian Broadcasting Corporation, the ABC, can best be described as:

    a) An incredibly one-sided, left-leaning, Coalition-despising collection of Green- and Labor-voting propagandists masquerading as journalists

    b) An organisation that takes over a billion dollars of taxpayer money and then, when it comes to its political coverage, is obviously and notably one that takes left of centre positions on the carbon tax, on illegal immigrants (and I use that phrase because its accurate and whatever some puffed up pseudo bureaucrat thinks), on the mining tax, on the Keynesian stimulus debate, on the merits of running (or rather not running) a surplus, on … well, everything

    c) One that cannot point to a single conservative hosting any of its flagship political television shows. Not a single one. Not ever

    d) Has a director, Mark Scott, whose grasp of what counts as bias is wholly deluded

    e) All of the above are correct. It is impossible to choose which is the best description

    I’m surprised that Quiggin doesn’t work for the ABC. They would love him. Keynesian economics is his big thing.

  117. Neville says

    At long last the Washington Post prints a column telling the truth about the corrupt fraud of CAGW mitigation.
    I suppose once every decade or so just proves the level of corruption this con inspires?

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/07/obamas-global-warming-folly/#more-89465

    What a joke, I’ve been writing about this for years but these clueless donkeys are just starting to wake up.
    But just think about the reference to the USA returning to 1992 levels of co2 emissions. In 1990 OECD emissions were just 11.6 bn tonnes and non OECD were 10 bn Ts.

    But projections to 2035 are just 14.3 bn Ts for OECD and a whopping 28.9 bn T’s for the non OECD.
    Will these numbskulls ever wake up?

  119. Neville says

    This could be the most important post from Steve McIntyre since he and McKitrick exposed the Mann HS fraud.

    http://climateaudit.org/2013/07/07/treeline-changes-and-altitude-inhomogeneity/#more-18069

    Treeline elevations in the polar urals shows a much warmer MWP and a complete absence of trees during the LIA up until about 1900.
    Later studies shows treelines at 430 metres not the 300 metres as stated by Briffa. These con merchants try to disguise and hide data whenever they can just to extend their CAGW fraud as long as possible.

  120. Luke says

    ponzi catastrophists fraud corruption lies delusional

    More Walter Mitty moments. More cut and paste. No content. Just some science illiterate inn keeper over 50 and definitely male having a rightist sook. You’re talking to yourself mate. There is no discussion. In fact why don’t you start your own blog – Unca Nev’s Sookfest

  121. sp says

    Luke – why dont you start your own blog and argue with yourself instead of wasting others time?

    By the way – when are YOU going to publish? You seem to know everything about everything:

    “Lukes Big Book About Everything and Why Everyone Else Is Wrong (except Luke)

  122. Neville says

    SP I’m afraid Luke knows SFA about not much. I mean he still believes so much about this CAGW fraud even after some of the stalwart press are starting to have doubts.

    I’m linking to real info proving the stupidity of this nonsense and he still persists in the belief of his chosen cult.

    Note he can’t answer the big questions that I’ve listed above but just throws more abusive drivel to try and avoid my questions.
    I’ve asked for his solutions for mitigation of CAGW and after years he still can’t answer except it’s hard, or perhaps new nukes but also mixed with regular abuse.

    R&D and adaptation is the only real solution, yet this fool thinks that can’t work either, mixed with more dummy spits.

  124. Luke says

    Well Neville – thanks for contributing to the discussion with your daily news clippings from Wattsup and Bolta. I could not find them without you.

    You’ve had many responses from me – but ducked all my questions. But your role of news boy is very worthwhile.

    You might ponder why the research community simply ignores all your blogs now – basically the level of disinformation is so high that no serious scientist even reads the material. So regardless of what you think the situation is polarised and tribal. Nothing much is moving between the tribes. Your market is your market – you’re talking among yourselves.

  125. sp says

    Luke – and which research communities use your posts? Are you a serious scientist?

  126. Avatar photojennifer says

    sp,

    I prefer that discussion was about issues rather than the qualifications, or not, of people with contrary opinion.

    Many of us have missed Luke when he decided not to comment for periods of time in the past.

    Indeed I think it would be good for us to have more people like Luke at this blog, putting the alternative and mainstream position.

    Everyone,

    I shall start deleting groups of comments if they become personal and off-topic. Disagreement is to be addressed through logical argument… please.

  127. Neville says

    Jennifer , Luke may have his uses but his abuse and swearing in the past is sometimes beyond a joke.
    I’ve always tried to see the logic of his arguments, but he never seems to understand the hypocrisy, inconsistencies and just plain deceit and stupidity from the CAGW side.

    For example the level of stupidity from Obama and his advisors is a blogland joke as is the idea that OZ should also lead a mitigation charge that will some how show a dividend in the lifetime of our grandkids.

    To this Luke says nothing but offers more silly responses that actually damns the person who points out these lies and or delusions.

    I mean these people are hopeless, they’ve now reduced warming to around 2C by 2100, they’ve now admitted that extreme weather events are not CAGW related, SLR is probably around 6 inches to 1 foot in 100 years, there will be less deaths from AGW because of less cold deaths, grain crops get a direct 16% benefit from extra co2 and become more drought tolerant.

    The MDB was supposed to have serious drought problems but now is supposed to suffer more rainfall and flooding etc. I think it will be both as it always has been. Sometimes too much drought, sometimes too much rain and floods.
    Just look at all of Goklany’s studies showing much fewer deaths from extreme weather events now and into the future and the UN actually stating that a future world will see a much higher standard of living and life expectancy for the poorest countries as well as the wealthiest.

  128. Luke says

    And in the spirit of putting something positive forward

    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/06/26/1309353110.abstract

    Improved El Niño forecasting by cooperativity detection

    Josef Ludeschera, Avi Gozolchianib, Mikhail I. Bogacheva,c, Armin Bundea, Shlomo Havlinb,
    and Hans Joachim Schellnhuberd,e,1aInstitut für Theoretische Physik, Justus-Liebig-Universität Giessen, 35392 Giessen, Germany; bDepartment of Physics, Bar-Illan University, Ramat Gan 52900, Israel; cRadio Systems Department, St. Petersburg Electrotechnical University, St. Petersburg 197376, Russia; dPotsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research,
    14412 Potsdam, Germany; and eSanta Fe Institute, Santa Fe, NM 87501

    Contributed by Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, May 30, 2013 (sent for review March 12, 2013)

    Although anomalous episodic warming of the eastern equatorial
    Pacific, dubbed El Niño by Peruvian fishermen, has major (and occasionally
    devastating) impacts around the globe, robust forecasting
    is still limited to about 6 mo ahead. A significant extension of
    the prewarning time would be instrumental for avoiding some of
    the worst damages such as harvest failures in developing countries.
    Here we introduce a unique avenue toward El Niño prediction
    based on network methods, inspecting emerging teleconnections.
    Our approach starts from the evidence that a large-scale cooperative
    mode—linking the El Niño basin (equatorial Pacific corridor)
    and the rest of the ocean—builds up in the calendar year before
    the warming event. On this basis, we can develop an efficient
    12-mo forecasting scheme, i.e., achieve some doubling of the earlywarning
    period. Our method is based on high-quality observational
    data available since 1950 and yields hit rates above 0.5, whereas
    false-alarm rates are below 0.1.

    And this is why Neville’s comments are appalling – his daily uncritical tirade of abuse and screeching of fraud and corruption are why this sort of valuable research is likely to be canned.

  129. Neville says

    Gosh Lukey I don’t think I have that much influence. But why would I want to limit research into ENSO forecasting?

    Just drop the waste and fraud of renewable energy implementation and there would be more than enough for proper funding over the entire spectrum of climate research.

    Amazing I point out the stupid waste of billions of $ on verifiable nonsense and some how that makes my maths cert assessment appalling?
    If you can’t add up simple sums that’s your problem but then again you’ve got a lot of mates. Even the US president and his advisors agree with you. But it’s not something to be proud of.

  130. Avatar photojennifer says

    Neville,

    I appreciate your input very much, but use of the term “silly” is not helpful.

    Furthermore, President Obama happens to be the leader of the most powerful nation on earth, that at least nominally operates through a democracy. That country also happens to be a close ally.

    That Luke sees the sense in Obama’s response to various important policy initiatives makes his position the mainstream position, probably in Australia as well as the US.

    We should seek to understand it, even if we disagree with it.

    Indeed while we may be right, we are the minority in a democracy and we are increasingly being marginalised.

    So in reality, it is us, not Luke, who need to exercise care and rational argument.

  131. Neville says

    Jennifer I respect you and I fully understand you set the rules and I have to fit in. I agree that we live in a democracy and we all have a vote and I’ll always believe in the outcome whatever that may be.

    But I can’t ignore simple evidence that proves that the CAGW theory is sadly lacking. And as a number of more intelligent people than myself have stated– science is not a democracy and if the theory doesn’t hold up then you try another informed guess and begin the test again. ( see Richard Feynman)

    Mind you I still believe that there is some AGW in the system but at the moment the sums prove that there is nothing we can do to fix the problem, even if there is one.
    This isn’t debatable it’s just simple maths supported by the historical ice core data. No matter how frustrated this makes people feel you can’t just wish it away.

  132. Luke says

    “But why would I want to limit research into ENSO forecasting?” well that will be the same models and data sets that you assert are corrupt and used by warmist scientists.

    Your indiscriminate shelling takes out everything – it’s not like there are two sets of physics. Shows how little you understand. You’re a science vandal !

    Jen – did I say anything about Obama’s initiative?

    What is tiresome is Neville’s daily screeching of fraud and corruption. Well tell those people to their face and see if he gets a fat lip. Walk straight up to your local CSIRO or BoM scientist and tell them that they are corrupt. Corrupt is a very serious charge.

    Or bring it on in court and prove they’re corrupt. It’s totally offensive and he doesn’t understand half of what he reads.

    It’s simply parroting. So listen to what Jen says – “So in reality, it is us, not Luke, who need to exercise care and rational argument.” which means not press clipping everything that you read as some sort of blog truth.

    Like your ice core comment which I’ve addressed twice and you haven’t responded. It’s simply irrelevant in any case.

  133. Luke says

    “and I’ll always believe in the outcome whatever that may be.” well that’s point – you might accept it – but the whole point of free speech and democracy is that you don’t have to believe !

  134. Avatar photojennifer says

    Not asking you to ignore evidence, Neville. 🙂

    And keep posting all those link that annoy Luke.

    I simply ask that Luke’s perspective be respected. That does not mean his perspective should be accepted… Argue against it, but with that evidence and even more so if he reverts to appeals to authority in reply.

  138. Neville says

    Jennifer I’ll certainly keep linking to articles that interest me and hopefully annoy Luke. But he gets very tedious at times especially when we both accept the science of AGW. ( but not CAGW)

    Perhaps I should explain myself here. I was brought up by a Dad and Mum who hated con merchants ( particularly religious fanatics) and couldn’t understand why people were taken in so easily by fraudsters.

    So I suppose I’m very biased that way and hate to see people being led astray ( in this mitigation of co2 case) by this latest nonsense.
    Perhaps there is a way to use science and engineering to remove some co2 from the atmosphere, but whether this is more efficient than trees and plants is probably debatable.

    Perehaps biology will help if we could fertilize the fairly barren Pacific, who knows? But planting more trees seems to be the way at the moment.
    But it will be a long wait to get any result if we first have to reduce co2 to around 350ppmv and then wait for thousands of years to build on that reduction via lower temps.

    BTW spangled thanks for that link, but Leif ( NASA’s resident solar expert at WUWT) thinks the next ice age will be another 60,000 years in the future.
    He bases this on the distance in orbit that earth would have to be from the sun to cause it. It’s a complete puzzle to me why this would be so and it would be a complete change on the last million years or so.

  139. Luke says

    El Gordo – they did not make it up. They used a state of the art GCM which they didn’t produce to undertake an experiment. You don’t believe the methods or the results but they didn’t make it up. In fact it’s a most contorted way to make something up.

    “He bases this on the distance in orbit that earth would have to be from the sun to cause it. It’s a complete puzzle to me why this would be so and it would be a complete change on the last million years or so.” Well not really – it’s very simple and we’ve been over this before here – you have 3 interacting Milankovitch mechanisms – that reinforce or not – eccentricity of our orbit, axial tilt and wobble. The ice age cycles do not have to be regular like clockwork.

    Read the future conditions bit here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles and http://amper.ped.muni.cz/gw/articles/html.format/orb_forc.html

  140. Luke says

    Neville – your assessment of many CSIRO and BoM scientists is appalling. Do you think they go to work reveling in committing fraud and being con artists? Really? Do you?

    That’s what you daily screeching says. And you’re saying there are heaps of them. All on the take.

    Do you know them? Have you ever had a discussion. Do they appear to have a religious fervour about them?

    You wouldn’t know.

    And why do they undertake such complex fraud. Surely there must be simpler ways than bashing one’s head inside out with all that maths and physics.

    But keep vandalising – tear it all down and help create the new wave of science nihilism.

    Want con artists and religious fervour – try many of the “sceptic scientists” who spruik at rallies and note the tone of extremism. It’s rabid screeching. I’ve seen the crowd rev-up techniques.

    Your view is myopic and blog sourced.

  141. el gordo says

    ‘HEALTH impacts caused by low-frequency noise from wind turbines have been known to US researchers and the renewable energy industry for more than 25 years.

    ‘American researchers used mock homes, big speakers and seven volunteers to simulate and measure the impact of low-frequency noise produced by early model, two-blade wind turbines under controlled conditions.’

    Graham Lloyd in the Oz

  142. el gordo says

    ‘Do you think they go to work reveling in committing fraud and being con artists? Really? Do you?’

    If I may have a few quiet words … they have been sucked into a vortex of mass delusion, brought on by enlightened self interest in an adversarial academic environment.

    None of the Klimatariat will stand trial for fraud, anymore than the politicians and journalists who helped bring about one of the greatest scams of the modern era.

    With global cooling heading our way the whole business needs to be shut down.

  143. Luke says

    ” they have been sucked into a vortex of mass delusion” and so why just in this field over so many global institutions. It’s a global mass delusion?!?

    CSIRO and BoM in an “adversarial academic environment” – nuh

    Maybe medical doctors or engineers are next.

    Global cooling pffft !

  146. Luke says

    Is that what’s called entropy – errrr no.

    “And why are we so much cooler than the last interglacial when there was no civilisation?” well a single ice core ain’t the world like one met station ain’t the world.

    What was the solar insolation during the last interglacial?

  147. Luke says

    In fact it looks like anthropocene CO2 has prevented another glaciation which is why the far left of the graph is flat.

  148. Neville says

    Luke you’re hopelessly wrong about me , but who could care less.

    Meanwhile it looks like Murry Salby has been shafted and even more so than the disgraceful conduct against Bob Carter at JCU.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/08/professor-critical-of-agw-theory-being-disenfranchised-exiled-from-academia-in-australia/#more-89542

    Just proves once again the pseudoscientific nonsense that these fools are promoting and all funded fully by the poor taxpayer.

    Salby should have been strongly supported by Macquarie uni but it seems they have worked against him at every turn.
    Like the treatment of Carter it is a disgrace and an embarrassment to science in OZ and around the world.

  150. el gordo says

    ‘In fact it looks like anthropocene CO2 has prevented another glaciation which is why the far left of the graph is flat.’

    The difference between the Holocene and the Eemian is the dampening effect of the Younger Dryas, which created a tabletop.

    This has been fortuitous for humanity.

  151. spangled drongo says

    Luke thinks that 10,000 years of steady cooling is civilisation preventing an ice age with CO2.

    About on par with his understanding of thermodynamic entropy.

    But I suppose that when he claims that there is no cooling, you can’t expect much better.

    The boy is simply confused.

    And are you also claiming the Eemian was not warmer than the Holocene?

  156. Neville says

    The CSIRO confirms Matt Ridley’s video covering the research that proves that the planet is becoming greener.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/08/deserts-greening-from-rising-co2/#more-89510

    Before this the CSIRO has shown that extra co2 provided a 16% boost to cereal crops and assisted with drought tolerance as well.

    Just thought I’d throw another part of this mitigation of co2 fraud into the ring. I’ve written about this elephant in the room over the years but we can’t get a sensible answer because it so clearly defies common sense.

    If co2 is such a problem for the future of our planet, then we should immediately stop exporting coal , gas, iron ore etc.
    I mean we are trying to cut back like crazy in the OECD but exporting every tonne of fossil fuels that any country wants to buy. And trying to increase tonnages every year.
    In OZ’s case the small tonnage we use at home is zip compared to the increased tonnages we strive to export every year.

    This just proves this fraud is all about political philosophy and has nothing to do with the so called dangers of increased co2 emissions

    All of our exports help to increase new jobs and industry overseas but we have to rely on fraudulent, super expensive and unreliable solar and wind energy at home.

    Just more proof that this is the most easily understood and greatest con and fraud in recent history.

  157. Luke says

    Neville complains about me not answering questions and he’s just done the biggest runner with the great big sooky “I don’t care” – oooooo.

    “Before this the CSIRO has shown that extra co2 provided a 16% boost to cereal crops” but CSIRO can’t be trusted – so why do you believe that. Selective eh?

  159. el gordo says

    See the power of propaganda, groupthink and mass delusion. US Networks blind in one eye.

    ‘Recent years’ slowdown in global warming completely ignored by networks 92 climate change stories in 2013.

    ‘Stories citing experts or the latest studies promoting alarmism get covered more than 8 times as often as critical experts and studies.

    ‘Although many scientists say no, ABC, CBS and NBC continue to link weather events like tornadoes, hurricanes, heat waves and more to climate change nearly one-fourth of the time.’

    Julia Seymour / WSJ