Holiday Reading: Emma Marris

Hi Jennifer,

Longtime reader etc etc and I must thankyou for your always interesting blog.

I could find no mention of Emma Marris and her new book ‘The Rambunctious Garden’ on there so I wondered if you were aware of it. I thought it would generate some debate as it has with my group of friends, so I thought I’d pass it on.

The first link is to an article she co-wrote and the second a review of sorts. She is a superb writer and I commend it to you.

Best wishes for the season and the new year!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/opinion/the-age-of-man-is-not-a-disaster.html

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/living-with-natures-original-sin-20111209-1oo3n.html

Regards Ross

46 Responses to Holiday Reading: Emma Marris

  1. jennifer December 27, 2011 at 5:33 pm #

    Thanks Ross. I’m yet to read the book. But did hear her interviewed by Michael Duffy on Counterpoint. The interview can be downloaded here: http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/counterpoint/a-new-look-at-nature/3710006

  2. Geoff Brown December 27, 2011 at 6:12 pm #

    Happy New Year, Jen. Hope this year brings you many new starts

  3. John Sayers December 27, 2011 at 6:28 pm #

    In my region the Cherry Tomato has become a weed. They sprout up everywhere as their seed is carried and distributed by their consumers, King Parrots.

  4. spangled drongo December 27, 2011 at 8:28 pm #

    “Within that broad picture there are smaller problems, such as the dingo. It has been here a mere 4000 years, so does it really deserve a place in any effort to recreate pristine wilderness? And if we are to allow dingoes into national parks, why not indigenous hunters and gatherers too? (Or, if none can be found, other people performing the same functions?)”

    Dogs, foxes, cats and rabits have been probably our most destructive ferals animals [next to us โ˜ป] but overall I’m inclined to think that all environmentalists [and that includes me] are just members of the garden club.

    Everyone loves the moral high ground.

    But those Cherry Tomatoes taste great, John. Bloody King Parrots relish every exotic there is and spread them to hell and back. The more noxious the better. Makes you wonder what they did for food before us ferals arrived.

    And what’s with these “indigenous hunters”? Anthropos are all feral in Australia. And none of them seem to be much good at eradicating pests.

    We’re all in the same boat so we should cut the multi-culti crap and keep rowing, Argonauts!

  5. John Sayers December 27, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    I was reading about the indigenous tribes in the northern rivers region. They were the Bunjalung nation that spread from Grafton to Ipswich/Beaudesert and across to Tenterfield. They have dreamtime stories of how they arrived from the sea at Goanna Headland near Evans Head 12,000 years ago.

    SD, I read somewhere they now reckon the dingo came well before 4000 years ago.

  6. Ian Thomson December 28, 2011 at 5:58 am #

    I am reminded of the recent ‘rediscovery’ ,due to land clearing, of the Garden Cities reported by very early Spanish explorers in the Amazon Basin.
    An early party was amazed to see one place, where for 80 miles, there was barely a space between the buildings on the shore and by the fabulous wealth of the populace.
    Man changed the landscape then, by disease and enslavement and it was abandoned as the survivors scattered in the jungle.
    Enter pristine rainforest ,to be protected at all cost. And now, because the locals wish to live like us, they are relearning lessons about good and bad management of the Basin.
    In the process the past is being uncovered in the jungle.

    Also pertinent is this- Wild creatures thriving in one of the scariest places possible.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45790893/ns/us_news-environment/

    In our own country the ubiquitous gum tree is changing the climate and environment as we speak.
    Colonising by fire.

  7. Robert December 28, 2011 at 7:12 am #

    Where I live, forest fringe, is an example of the fast evolution that happens when you mix “native” and domestic. Animals learn big-time. Each species has “radical” members who experiment with anything new, and lead others along. Wallabies and bowerbirds are the champion “progressives”, but even a python or goanna can learn many new tricks. Periods of drought and stress are a good time to experiment, as are periods where humans and their dogs are absent, and overgrowth offers good cover. A plant which is hateful for years can suddenly become popular. After a decade or so, the “native” species will have adapted to the new diet and conditions.

    I have thousands of pieces of fruit, probably hundreds of thousands if you count the luscious blueberries and shahtoot mulberries. I don’t get any of it now. Not even citrus, apart from limes – and even the limes are under threat. Nor do the fruit bats get a look in. Everything gets devoured by the bowerbirds, koels and possums before the fruit bats get a chance. Marauders take even my macadamias, and the reason I don’t bother trimming out the mistletoe from my pecans and olives is that all the work will likely be for various “natives”.

    I find that, if I put all my energies into protecting new moso bamboo from possums and wallabies during spring, I have something good to eat and timber that isn’t slow-growing, heavy and murderous to handle. That’s enough work, thanks! I’ll garden when I leave the bush.

    Nature is nothing but change. She is a perpetual radical. In contrast, the piety, rigidity and literal-mindedness of our Green Betters make for a strange, conservative and very urban religion, don’t they?

  8. Debbie December 28, 2011 at 9:39 am #

    It is very interesting to note that ‘nature’ is actually often far more adaptable than we are. Urbanites love order and a protected environment. Many of them have developed an unrealistic notion of ‘the balance’ in nature, believing incorrectly that it is static and afraid of change. That is more likely a human tendency to ‘project’.
    Like Robert, I live and work outside of the protected urban environment and see first hand how highly adaptable our native species, both plant and animal truly are.
    In the MDB, species that we were told were basically extinct have re appeared in plague proportions. It leads me to conclude that they actually know more about our climate and environment than our highly politically popular environmental spokespesons.
    If ‘mother nature’ had a personality, I think it must include a wicked sense of humour. She is taking great pleasure in taking the mickey out of them at the moment ๐Ÿ™‚
    Of course that’s not it. Nature is just way more adaptable to change than we are. As Robert highlights, the only constant is change.
    It is a bit of a foreign concept to our urban environmentalits. They want it to stay the same.

  9. Luke December 28, 2011 at 9:52 am #

    Protected environment? Apart from all those drought relief subsidies – nyuk nyuk – don’t have yourself on.

  10. Debbie December 28, 2011 at 10:55 am #

    But Luke?
    Because I am a human I am not as adaptable either. Your point about subsisies just further proves mine about the ‘native’ environment.
    Our natural ephemeral species obviously didn’t need your help. They’re doing just fine. Come and see for yourself.
    My point remains that urban environmentalists are having themselves on. They live in a world that is largely protected from nature’s constant tendency to change and evolve and adapt.
    I have no problem with that BTW. I’m very glad that the vast majority of mankind prefers to live in their urban environment. If they all truly wanted to live in their romantic idea of ‘natural’, we would all be in big trouble.
    My beef is that they live that lifestyle choice and then use that position to dictate on subjects that they have little practical knowledge.
    Urban environments are the classic example of forcing the landscape to remain static.

  11. Luke December 28, 2011 at 11:52 am #

    The local bakery business or panel beater falls on hard times – that’s it ! Toodle pip. All over red rover. No bailouts. No multi-million dollar research programs to assist either (and to abuse).

    Urban landscapes – static hardly? get out more Debs. The noise of birds in my “suburb” is deafening at the moment. And the clutch of duckies. Such a sterile environment it isn’t. It’s the new urban woodland Debs.

    Prefer to live in their urban environment? Lifestyle choice !!!! ARGH – pigs botty – Alas most of us don’t have the cash to purchase multi-million dollar agricultural properties from first principles. Unless Daddy gave you the leg up or you married into it. Or you’ve been working in the mines for decades and kept off the piss.

    As for natural ephemeral species, you really don’t really know what made it through the drought and what didn’t in absolute terms. Unless your mind is great over 20 year spans. The pleasure provided by the new decadal flush of greenery, and the all squeaking, squawking, chirping and croaking seems nice on the surface but is hardly an ecological inventory.

  12. debbie December 28, 2011 at 1:33 pm #

    Luke,
    You are so far off track it is hilarious.
    Your point about the birds and the duckies adapting to the urban environment just further proves my original point. They are incredibly adaptable aren’t they? Way more adaptable than we are.
    As for the ephemeral species….quite clearly by your own admission…..you don’t know either!
    That’s the point as well. I’m totally sick of people pretending that they do know when they clearly have no real idea at all. As I commented earlier….if ‘Mother Nature’ truly was a personality….she would have to have a wicked sense of humour.
    What I do know is that several species of birds, frogs and plants that we were loudly admonished were basically gone forever are back in plague proportions. As I said earlier, come and see for yourself. It is an ecological inventory of sorts. No one said it was absolute or perfect. It is vastly different to the ‘official’ reports and predictions however.
    Also Luke…it costs just as much to purchase a property in the city as it does to purchase a farm in my area….actually in many urban suburbs it costs way more.
    There are also way more urban inheritors and gold diggers than we could ever hope to produce out here….but of course we also have some of those as well. They are certainly not the norm however….just as they’re not in the cities.
    And….you don’t think that urban govt sponsored programs are not regularly abused? Hello? Would you actually like to go there? Really? How about we do a cost comparison either per capita or per Sq Km on where MOST of the taxpayer dollar is spent and where MOST of it gets abused? A little bit of perspective would be appreciated Luke. As I also said earlier, I have no problem with the way Urbanites choose to live….we all make our choices.
    You seem to think that rural subsidies are an ongoing burden on society?
    The ones that get ‘over subsidised’ have tradtionally gone bust anyway. You seem to lack perspective on this subject or you are relying too heavily on impractical bureaucratic reports.
    There is a massive difference between govt ‘bailouts’ when rural areas are affected by droughts and flooding rains and government subsidies designed to prop up industries that would not survive without tax payer money. I would respectfully suggest you learn the difference between the two.
    A little hint….the bailed out sectors are already in the process of paying back for the much appreciated help ๐Ÿ™‚
    And how about we now go back to the point of the post and Emma Marris’ perspective?

  13. spangled drongo December 28, 2011 at 1:42 pm #

    “The pleasure provided by the new decadal flush of greenery, and the all squeaking, squawking, chirping and croaking seems nice on the surface but is hardly an ecological inventory.”

    I’m so relieved you get a kick out of good seasons, Luke.

    I was beginning to think you were the “Dread King Drought” personified.

    “I am the master, the dread king drought, and the great west land is mine. Just dont let anyone go subsidising the farmers. Govt green-wankery? fine, but… NO FARMERS”.

    “but is hardly an ecological inventory.”

    Have you checked it out? there’s not much missing.

    Except warming, that is.

  14. Ian Thomson December 28, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    Bloody hell Luke, there is a duck in suburbia, there are MILLIONS out here now .So many that they have forced the abandonment of some rice crops.
    Do you not believe that farmers and other observant country people, even notice changes in insect populations ?
    One can easily spot very small insects from up in a big tractor. Rice farmers MUST wade through the crop to check for pests and diseases. The water is shallow and clear. Any good farmer walks his farm with his eyes searching the ground as does any good bushman.
    The thousands of spoonbills egrets etc can be seen from the roadside.
    If you do not have to pull up and let them get off the road.

    I gather you have a serious case of farmer envy. Small businesses also received drought assistance.
    I , as a contracted employee, did not. I am not bitter toward the ones who did, but I have an issue with being abandoned by the Feds to be fed on by the financial sector.

    Debbie ,I wonder if you are experiencing the sudden blooming of feral birds from the coastal fringe ?
    Even in the last month, from Hay to Nagambie , the most common bird on the road is becoming the Indian Myna . They will change things dramatically , should they take hold.

  15. debbie December 28, 2011 at 4:15 pm #

    Ian,
    Yep got them too.
    However the winners are definitely the ducks….untold millions of the supposed endangered whistler….along with many many other varieties….the frogs, including that really noisy one that was supposedly extinct (can’t remember its name!) Insects galore…beautiful native water plants that we haven’t seen for some time (and the bloody weeds as well!) snakes of all varieties….tortoises (we have to stop for them several times a day)…the bull roarer bird (forgotten its scientific name at the moment)….untold other cranes and waders, 1000s of brolgas, water rats (haven’t seen them for a while either), Murray cod in the channels (haven’t seen them for a few years but they’re back)…yabbies and fresh water crays galore….and unfortunately zillions of flies and mozzies (I didn’t miss them).
    I have noticed some of the parrots and the black and white birds like willie wagtails and pee wees and magpies actually nest twice this season (along with the wretched starlings which are a problem introduced species)….and the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
    Despite Luke’s negativity, this is definitely an ecological inventory of sorts. Luke doesn’t seem to understand what ephemeral actually means. Our natural environment is most definitely a ‘boom and bust’ environment and at the moment it is absolutely BOOMING…..strangely right alongside a BOOMING summer broadacre irrigation season.
    Thank you for also noting the huge bang for our ecological buck that rice paddies deliver all over the world….not just in Australia.
    Ignorant and impractical bureaucratic ecologists seem to think that ‘nature’ can only exist where they have reported it existing….how dare it thrive so well outside their parameters?

  16. spangled drongo December 28, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    Debbie,

    Your “bullroarer bird” sounds interesting.

    What does it look like? Is it a water bird like a bittern or a heron? The Great-Billed Heron roars like a crocodile but it’s up north.

  17. Robert December 28, 2011 at 6:50 pm #

    Because of certain changes occurring around here, I had to take well-meaning advice and clean my windows. I expected the worst. Sure enough, on the first day after cleaning, two bird crashes. Unfortunately, they weren’t satin bowerbirds but lovely bar-shouldered doves. One survived. Now I’ve had to stick lengths of bamboo and my St. George jumper across the bloody window. There goes the view.

    Old-school aborigines and rural Europeans have something in common. They hunt relentlessly every animal and bird that’s edible. Dopey white Aussies open up free delicatessens for bowerbirds, ducks, wallabies etc…and call them “farms”.

  18. John Sayers December 28, 2011 at 7:13 pm #

    Ian, you hit the nail on the head with this to Luke: “I gather you have a serious case of farmer envy.”

    It says it all for me regards city bureaucrats and most inner city lefties.

  19. spangled drongo December 28, 2011 at 7:43 pm #

    More [ACO2-like] junk science:

    http://junkscience.com/2011/12/27/nope-peregrines-not-saved-by-ddt-ban-either/

  20. spangled drongo December 28, 2011 at 8:11 pm #

    O/T but still in the garden club:

    Revkin clarifies facts on the Arctic methane:

    http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/leaders-of-arctic-methane-project-clarify-climate-concerns/

    “Last spring, we extracted a 53-meter long core sample from the East Siberian Arctic Shelf, to validate our conclusions about the current state of subsea permafrost. We found that the temperatures of the sediments were from 1.2 to 0.6 degrees below zero, Celsius, yet they were completely thawed. The model in the Dmitrenko paper [link] assumed a thaw point of zero degrees.”

    That essential modelling wrong again. Well well, who’d a thought?

  21. Neil Hewett December 28, 2011 at 8:12 pm #

    Bearing in mind that this weblog discussion is being conducted almost exclusively by humans of ‘introduced’ origin, arguing to the altruistic principle of eradicating introduced species is fundamentally self-defeating.

    Before we take upon ourselves the propriety of controlling the infinite complexities of the natural world, we should admit that individually we are only capable of controlling ourselves. Collectively, we could then constrain our individual behaviours so that the natural values of this world are not unnecessarily damaged. We might even establish contingencies that hold individuals, corporations and governments accountable for their ongoing individual constraint.

    Wilderness is the ultimate expression of humanity.

  22. Luke December 28, 2011 at 8:26 pm #

    Just because the family farm couldn’t be sold to anyone but the eldest son who didn’t want it would make one bitter.

    BTW the ducks have been here all along including the drought.

  23. John Sayers December 28, 2011 at 8:58 pm #

    The eldest son doesn’t want it because we’ve constantly devalued it. It’s now to the point only the pastoral companies want it or the city based investor superannuate want’s it. We’ve screwed it!

  24. Ian Thomson December 28, 2011 at 9:02 pm #

    Two things here –
    It is a bit easy sometimes to have a go at Luke and old mate Gav ,from Cantberra.
    Point is, if a reality check was done, they are engaging with us and debating.
    Several million people do not know this is happening. (MSM, easy to blame ..)
    How do we engage them ?

    I come back to Bob Katter , who is not a ” Level Field” man . Hope he stays in there ,even if he is stoned with subsidy produced cans of tomatoes, from broke Europe

  25. gavin December 28, 2011 at 9:07 pm #

    Long live king rice and duck tomatoes hey

  26. Ian Thomson December 28, 2011 at 9:30 pm #

    Gavin, I want some ,if it can be safely transported. Cannot wait to get free of all the various, annoying realities.

  27. John Sayers December 28, 2011 at 9:32 pm #

    you can probably trance the problem back to this song and others like it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHpkqr-SYD0

  28. gavin December 28, 2011 at 9:37 pm #

    Neil; on humanity, at the local level we seem to suffer the dysfunctional family thing most about xmas time.

    On the international scene we have another peculiar feature on show and this time its that N Korean pantomime.

    By contrast our ABC featured a fascinating doc last night on joint efforts to multiply the giant pandas in captivity. This kind of intimate science can benefit all.

    On a larger scale an author interviewed recently, again with the ABC has concluded environmental “crime” committed by corporate bodies needs to be treated the same as other criminal activities and involve the pursuit of individuals such as the CEO.

  29. debbie December 29, 2011 at 8:29 am #

    Luke,
    Your ideas about farming and farming families are SOOOO last century….almost 19th century.
    Seriously, it is good as Ian points out that you do engage and debate, but SURELY you have noticed that rural people are not actually the ‘environmental devils’ that the MSM has repeatedly tried to paint?
    Neither are they the squatocracy of yesteryear.
    While many rural businesses are indeed generational, that happens no more than it does in urban areas.
    What we don’t have is the huge corporations, major unionised workforces or major bureaucratic departments. They reside in the urban areas.
    Businesses and departments like that, by their very nature, can’t be generational.
    Sniping at small family generational businesses is really missing the point.
    Both are important but one is not necessarily more important or more knowledgeable than the other.
    Pretending that it is economically impossible to be part of a small business or to own a farm is simply not correct.
    It is all about choices, nothing more, nothing less.
    Plenty of people who have grown up on farms or in small rural areas have chosen the urban lifestyle and vice versa.
    We’re lucky in Australia that we do have the oportunity to make those choices.

  30. Minister for Truth December 29, 2011 at 9:06 am #

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/28/the-fishes-and-the-coral-live-happily-in-the-co2-bubble-plume/#more-53800

    Another example of greenmail from the leading lights of shonkademia.

    The GBR is in pretty good shape for something that is 1400 kms long, and despite the best endeavours of the grant grubbers to portray it other wise, it aint going anywhere.

    The biggest threat to its existence is the persistent “wolf crying” of some “scientists”, ever on the hunt for more sources for money, based upon press releases and contrived scare mongering.

    In the long run, this will mean people will just ignore all their pronouncements.

  31. Neville December 29, 2011 at 9:50 am #

    Bob Tisdale does more work that disproves the value of climate models and shows the strong link between el nino events and overall increase in SST. But where is the strong AGW link?

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/12/27/on-the-ipccs-undue-confidence-in-coupled-ocean-atmosphere-climate-models-a-summary-of-recent-posts/#more-53769

  32. Luke December 29, 2011 at 10:26 am #

    So Daddy or hubby got you the farm eh Debs? In that case baby you have no idea – silver spoon and on a platter stuff. There is no way the average citizen will come up with the financial resources to purchase a multi-million dollar property and associated infrastructure. In fact even owning a house is getting out of reach fro average Aussie kids. So how you stop talking utter crap about “lifestyle choices”.

  33. debbie December 29, 2011 at 12:18 pm #

    Luke
    ROFL
    Laughably of track again on both counts.
    Hubby and I worked our little tails off and bought our own farm and then we worked our little tails off some more and bought the next door neighbour’s farm. That’s what we wanted and that was our choice.
    We also took the time to specifically educate ourselves about leverage and capital investment.
    Hubby’s Daddy still owns his own farm (which he worked hard for) and we lease it from him. It will one day be part of a full family inheritance not unlike the way parents leave their children and grandchildren their urban properties and urban based family business enterprises.
    It is not particularly different. Hopefully your parents have/had taken the opportunity to own their own property and they like you enough to leave it to you and/or your siblings or your/their children?
    If you’re anything like me you would prefer them to still be around and living a happy and full life. So far we have only lost one parent….hopefully no more anytime soon.
    My Daddy was a corporate person albiet in a highly successful rural industry. He came from a very, very ordinary working class family….so did my Mum who worked right beside him their whole life. They had the grand total possessions of 5Pounds, a sofa bed and a german shepherd dog when they got hitched in the 1950’s. I have alway, always admired them.
    You must have missed my post about relative property prices rural vs urban?
    My in laws/siblings have moved to the city (by choice) and worked their tails off to own their valuable city properties. While we all had the full moral support of our parents and while they are excellent role models, the finances have always been our sole responsibility…..always.
    HMMMMM? Maybe I’m not the one who doesn’t know what they’re talking about?
    If you believe things are out of your reach then of course for you… that is going to be true.
    That is more to do with your belief system, not what is possible in this country.
    It is most certainly about choices and a willingness to take educated risks.
    We chose to take the risks and not rely solely on the security of employment income….we’re allowed to do that you know….so are you if you want ๐Ÿ™‚
    Actually for some time we did both…we were good employees AND we worked on our property/s. Me as a teacher and lecturer and Hubby as a farm manager and environmental manager on a feedlot enterprise.
    There is no crap sweetie….it is just about choices.
    It’s rather foreign to you I’m sure, but I have noticed that the harder people work and the less whinging they do, the luckier they seem to get.

    Here are some interesting life formulas for you. Have a litle think about it.

    Vision/goal +specific education + hard work + patience/time + passion = a very good chance of some success and the enjoyment of some rewards.

    Whinging+ complaining about other people’s good fortune + limited personal vision/education + relying on the govt to ‘fix it’ for you = a very good chance of failure and constant disappointment…..every time.

    ๐Ÿ™‚ so much for the silver spoon and platter stuff Lukey sweetie. I don’t deny there are people like that….just don’t know all that many of them. All of my peers got there by using formula number one above. Some of them have been assisted by inheritance because their parents have passed away….but they did all the hard work a long, long time before that happened. ๐Ÿ™‚
    Many of the people I used to work with in education are still whinging and still waiting for their parents to die ๐Ÿ™‚ Some of them are still expecting to win Lotto ๐Ÿ™‚ They often tell me how lucky I am that I no longer work in education ๐Ÿ™‚
    Lucky shmucky!!!! I chose to do what I did….we all have a lot to do with making our own luck simply by making good choices.
    You have chosen where you are in your life either by positive choice or by taking the path of least resistance or some combination of both.
    BUT…if you want to ….just keep whinging…that’s also your choice.

  34. spangled drongo December 29, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    “On a larger scale an author interviewed recently, again with the ABC has concluded environmental โ€œcrimeโ€ committed by corporate bodies needs to be treated the same as other criminal activities and involve the pursuit of individuals such as the CEO.”

    Gav, how about unincorporated bodies?

    http://tomnelson.blogspot.com/2011/12/climategate-email-warmist-tom-wigley.html

    I wonder what “context” you would have to put this in to claim it wasn’t outright fraud?

  35. Luke December 29, 2011 at 6:01 pm #

    Debbie I have yet to find anyone with multi-million dollar assets that hasn’t had a leg up, avoided tax or been growing dope. The numbers don’t add up. However if you’re running a prickle farm well that’s different.

  36. Ian Thomson December 29, 2011 at 7:12 pm #

    I suggest that you look at the Toorale thread . It is the same stuff packaged differently.
    I am not a conspiracy type person, but the history of Toorale and the Labour Party are a bit sus.
    If you take into consideration the Non reasons to buy the place.
    Just saying —

  37. gavin December 29, 2011 at 7:39 pm #

    SD; like it or not “the 1940s blip” is only a sceptics blog thingy. However you may recall my interest way back in this odd period and my guess if real it was somehow war related.

    Howz this? Those dramatic readings were all made by weather people in a hurry, hot thermometers, a change in metrology due to the war effort or perhaps a real swing in the global enviroment that has perplexed our modern day data keepers to the extent they need help from outside on the issue.

    Now consider if the info was real, then we are stuck with more than a possibility both our SST and near atmosphere are impacted by wide spread human engineering.

  38. spangled drongo December 29, 2011 at 8:11 pm #

    “SD; like it or not โ€œthe 1940s blipโ€ is only a sceptics blog thingy. However you may recall my interest way back in this odd period and my guess if real it was somehow war related.”

    Sorry gav, but you’re way off the mark there. The world was well known and well remembered to be extremely hot in that pre-war era. Didn’t you ever read “Grapes of Wrath”? That is factually the hottest period the US has ever had, in spite of Jimmy Hansen trying to “adjust” it out.

    Don’t you know about Australia’s dust bowl era?

    Still our worst drought period in many places.

    The US didn’t enter the war till 1941 [the end of that warm period] and while the rest of the world started earlier, the war could just as easily have caused errors in the opposite direction.

    The fact is, everything the hockey team has ever done with the official record has been to hide natural cycle variations and make the temp correlate with ACO2 emissions.

  39. Ian Thomson December 29, 2011 at 8:12 pm #

    Gavin,
    As we say,

    It is all a mystery, NOT a computer model.
    And always totally unpredictable.

  40. Debbie December 29, 2011 at 9:51 pm #

    Luke,
    You need to get out more.
    Just because you have never met anyone like that does not mean tbey don’t exist.
    Maybe you need to start hanging out in a different crowd?

  41. Luke December 30, 2011 at 8:19 am #

    But isn’t it just a tragedy Drongo that all the reconstructions and reanalyses come up with same answer of a clear warming trend. Admit it – you’re a denier.

  42. Debbie December 30, 2011 at 9:26 am #

    Gee whiz Luke,
    I havent noticed anyone saying that there is or isnt a warming trend. It is the AGW models and the attached political agenda that are being seriously questioned.

  43. Robert December 30, 2011 at 11:29 am #

    Hard to believe that the world hasn’t warmed a bit lately, starting in the nineteenth century, with some variation within the trend, such as the post-WW2 conditions that peaked with the global cooling panic of the seventies. Admittedly, much of that panic was promoted by juvenile rags like Time and Newsweek, and nobody scored any Nobels out of it.

    What this little warm patch within the Holocene has to do with CAGW theory must forever remain a mystery, except to SOME members of the IPCC – and all members of GetUp.

    By the by, good to see that Shenhua is building Asia’s biggest coal power station. Should take them five years, for 8 gigawatts. Nice.

    Those Chinese may not tax or fear coal, but they sure hate to waste it. Australia, by contrast, has found ways to triple-waste coal. Firstly, we burn lots of the stuff in rickety old facilities. Then we send it offshore to manufacture dinky toy wind turbines and solar units, then, after import and installation, we keep burning coal in rickety old facilities to “supplement” our dinky toys. Eventually, the dinky toys rust and fall apart, so there are dismantling costs…(Is that triple or quadruple waste? I kind of lost count.)

    At no point is there talk of new and far more efficient coal power. Presumably, half a decade to massive money and carbon savings doesn’t suit the “narrative” of our Green Betters.

  44. spangled drongo December 30, 2011 at 9:13 pm #

    Not as much a denier as you and your mate Jim. You’re both getting desperate:

    http://www.real-science.com/hansen-explains-missing-iq

  45. spangled drongo December 30, 2011 at 9:17 pm #

    I would have thought that the “dust bowl era” would be firmly fixed in your droughty mind.

  46. John Sayers December 31, 2011 at 9:13 am #

    Robert – that 8GW = total NSW coal fired power.

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