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	<title>Comments on: Global Warming for Dummies (Part 3)</title>
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	<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/</link>
	<description>a forum for the discussion of issues concerning the natural environment</description>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Marohasy &#187; Leading Climate Scientists Don’t Really Believe Their Climate Theory (Part 1)</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-65259</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Marohasy &#187; Leading Climate Scientists Don’t Really Believe Their Climate Theory (Part 1)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-65259</guid>
		<description>[...] by the IPCC scientists are similar to those often discussed at this blog, including the issue of cloud feedback and climate sensitivity.  There have been recent major breakthroughs in this area by Dr Roy Spencer a so-called climate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by the IPCC scientists are similar to those often discussed at this blog, including the issue of cloud feedback and climate sensitivity.  There have been recent major breakthroughs in this area by Dr Roy Spencer a so-called climate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52829</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52829</guid>
		<description>Not really.  The largest changes are when you look up.  For one thing the water vapor concentration and absorptions change radically.  There is practically none left at 15 km.  That is the lapse rate at work as the saturated vapor pressure of water vapor decreases with temperature.  You will notice that there is a lot less emission from CO2 as the altitude increases, and if you look closely you will see that the width of the band decreases.

Looking down you will notice that there is practically no absorption at 100 m, and the CO2 and water bands grow in with altitude.  This is because the layers near the surface are practically at the same temperature as the surface so the atmosphere appears transparent with equal amounts of absorption and emission.  As one goes higher there is more absorption than emission, so the window closes.

For those who wish, the application to see these things is at

&lt;a href=&quot;http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~archer/cgimodels/radiation.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~archer/cgimodels/radiation.html&lt;/a&gt;





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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not really.  The largest changes are when you look up.  For one thing the water vapor concentration and absorptions change radically.  There is practically none left at 15 km.  That is the lapse rate at work as the saturated vapor pressure of water vapor decreases with temperature.  You will notice that there is a lot less emission from CO2 as the altitude increases, and if you look closely you will see that the width of the band decreases.</p>
<p>Looking down you will notice that there is practically no absorption at 100 m, and the CO2 and water bands grow in with altitude.  This is because the layers near the surface are practically at the same temperature as the surface so the atmosphere appears transparent with equal amounts of absorption and emission.  As one goes higher there is more absorption than emission, so the window closes.</p>
<p>For those who wish, the application to see these things is at</p>
<p><a href="http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~archer/cgimodels/radiation.html" rel="nofollow">http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~archer/cgimodels/radiation.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52828</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Pompe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52828</guid>
		<description>Rabbett:So start at the bottom and work your way up in 1 km increments, look up and down. You might learn something like the radiation from lower levels in the CO2 bands does not get out to space, e.g. it is blocked

It doesn&#039;t get blocked it gets diverted some gets used before being radiated off to space e.g. something had to power my sailboat.

What we see in the upward looking chart is that the atmosphere radiates very well in bands where there are polyatomic atmospheric species with resonant vibration modes not so well where there aren&#039;t.  Without them the atmosphere will take quite a bit longer to cool but then without them the atmosphere would probably not warm as fast or as much.

Without polyatomic my sailboat would probably never have worked but then we would be here either and would it never have been built in the first place.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rabbett:So start at the bottom and work your way up in 1 km increments, look up and down. You might learn something like the radiation from lower levels in the CO2 bands does not get out to space, e.g. it is blocked</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t get blocked it gets diverted some gets used before being radiated off to space e.g. something had to power my sailboat.</p>
<p>What we see in the upward looking chart is that the atmosphere radiates very well in bands where there are polyatomic atmospheric species with resonant vibration modes not so well where there aren&#8217;t.  Without them the atmosphere will take quite a bit longer to cool but then without them the atmosphere would probably not warm as fast or as much.</p>
<p>Without polyatomic my sailboat would probably never have worked but then we would be here either and would it never have been built in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52827</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52827</guid>
		<description>So start at the bottom and work your way up in 1 km increments, look up and down.  You might learn something like the radiation from lower levels in the CO2 bands does not get out to space, e.g. it is blocked
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So start at the bottom and work your way up in 1 km increments, look up and down.  You might learn something like the radiation from lower levels in the CO2 bands does not get out to space, e.g. it is blocked</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52826</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Pompe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 01:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52826</guid>
		<description>Rabbet &quot;Jan, if you are at 20km looking down almost all of the atmosphere (molecules)is below you. You see about the same thing at 100 km looking down.&quot;

I know you &quot;see&quot; the same thing at 70 km looking down but is it really the same think you are looking at. At 20 km you are looking at and seeing in the window the surface radiation barely modified and that would be the similar at 70km  but wrt 15micron band we are looking at the radiation from CO2 at different heights to a depth of a few metres because of the atmospheric opacity in that band.  Strangely enough the temperature at around 70km is very similar to the temperature at 20 km, so perhaps we aren&#039;t really seeing the same thing at all. We can&#039;t even see the thermal radiation due to the higher temperature at the stratopause in the 15 m icron band.

Now that rather boring trivially obvious lot is not really relevant. Looking down from 20 km you see  the surface radiation in the window which is at the BB equivalent of 268K the upward one shows the same temperature driven radiation from the CO2 absorption band meaning the temperatures are the same. That the downward looking radiation at 20 km for the CO2 band is ~220K hardly surprising as that is about the temperature of the tropopause where the kinetic energy has been converted to potential energy.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rabbet &#8220;Jan, if you are at 20km looking down almost all of the atmosphere (molecules)is below you. You see about the same thing at 100 km looking down.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know you &#8220;see&#8221; the same thing at 70 km looking down but is it really the same think you are looking at. At 20 km you are looking at and seeing in the window the surface radiation barely modified and that would be the similar at 70km  but wrt 15micron band we are looking at the radiation from CO2 at different heights to a depth of a few metres because of the atmospheric opacity in that band.  Strangely enough the temperature at around 70km is very similar to the temperature at 20 km, so perhaps we aren&#8217;t really seeing the same thing at all. We can&#8217;t even see the thermal radiation due to the higher temperature at the stratopause in the 15 m icron band.</p>
<p>Now that rather boring trivially obvious lot is not really relevant. Looking down from 20 km you see  the surface radiation in the window which is at the BB equivalent of 268K the upward one shows the same temperature driven radiation from the CO2 absorption band meaning the temperatures are the same. That the downward looking radiation at 20 km for the CO2 band is ~220K hardly surprising as that is about the temperature of the tropopause where the kinetic energy has been converted to potential energy.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52825</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52825</guid>
		<description>Jan, if you are at 20km looking down almost all of the atmosphere (molecules)is below you.  You see about the same thing at 100 km looking down.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jan, if you are at 20km looking down almost all of the atmosphere (molecules)is below you.  You see about the same thing at 100 km looking down.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52824</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Pompe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52824</guid>
		<description>Ender: &quot;That doesn&#039;t explain anything that you are talking about.&quot;

Perhaps not to you but I didn&#039;t expect that it would.

for a constant entropy

dQ = dU - dW

dQ is the energy input dU is the change in internal energy dW is the energy required to do work (for example convection)  nothing is lost it can&#039;t go anywhere except out.  The radiation form the atmosphere is proportional to the 4th power of temperature or if you prefer the 4th power of it&#039;s average kinetic energy now the higher you go the more of this kinetic energy has been converted to potential energy which does not contribute to the radiation this is the &quot;leak&quot; Rabbett is talking about but as you can see it&#039;s not a leak.

As the parcel of air sinks it regains the kinetic energy from potential energy.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ender: &#8220;That doesn&#8217;t explain anything that you are talking about.&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps not to you but I didn&#8217;t expect that it would.</p>
<p>for a constant entropy</p>
<p>dQ = dU &#8211; dW</p>
<p>dQ is the energy input dU is the change in internal energy dW is the energy required to do work (for example convection)  nothing is lost it can&#8217;t go anywhere except out.  The radiation form the atmosphere is proportional to the 4th power of temperature or if you prefer the 4th power of it&#8217;s average kinetic energy now the higher you go the more of this kinetic energy has been converted to potential energy which does not contribute to the radiation this is the &#8220;leak&#8221; Rabbett is talking about but as you can see it&#8217;s not a leak.</p>
<p>As the parcel of air sinks it regains the kinetic energy from potential energy.</p>
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		<title>By: SJT</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52823</link>
		<dc:creator>SJT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52823</guid>
		<description>&quot;Law of conservation of energy is well established.&quot;

That doesn&#039;t explain anything that you are talking about.

&quot;Each layer is in local thermal equilibrium, which is actually an approximation, with the one above and below and that includes the solid surface with the skin layer.&quot;

Makes me think you have no idea what you are talking about, you seem to be at some stage of understanding that has not reached to the level of Calculus yet.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Law of conservation of energy is well established.&#8221;</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t explain anything that you are talking about.</p>
<p>&#8220;Each layer is in local thermal equilibrium, which is actually an approximation, with the one above and below and that includes the solid surface with the skin layer.&#8221;</p>
<p>Makes me think you have no idea what you are talking about, you seem to be at some stage of understanding that has not reached to the level of Calculus yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52822</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Pompe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52822</guid>
		<description>cohenite: &quot;but I assume you mean the surface layer is in thermal equilibrium with the &#039;atmosphere&#039;?&quot;

Each layer is in local thermal equilibrium, which is actually an approximation, with the one above and below and that includes the solid surface with the skin layer.

You can even see it in a MODTRAN simulation downward looking at 100m where the BB radiation in the window  as at the surface temperature and that in the CO2 absorption band it&#039;s due to emission from CO2 at the same temperature.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee272/JanPompe/rad29193535.gif&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee272/JanPompe/rad29193535.gif&lt;/a&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cohenite: &#8220;but I assume you mean the surface layer is in thermal equilibrium with the &#8216;atmosphere&#8217;?&#8221;</p>
<p>Each layer is in local thermal equilibrium, which is actually an approximation, with the one above and below and that includes the solid surface with the skin layer.</p>
<p>You can even see it in a MODTRAN simulation downward looking at 100m where the BB radiation in the window  as at the surface temperature and that in the CO2 absorption band it&#8217;s due to emission from CO2 at the same temperature.</p>
<p><a href="http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee272/JanPompe/rad29193535.gif" rel="nofollow">http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee272/JanPompe/rad29193535.gif</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2008/06/global-warming-for-dummies-part-3/comment-page-3/#comment-52821</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Pompe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/?p=1887#comment-52821</guid>
		<description>Ender:  &quot;And you know this how?&quot;

Law of conservation of energy is well established.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ender:  &#8220;And you know this how?&#8221;</p>
<p>Law of conservation of energy is well established.</p>
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